Try this

 

Thanks DanSoko, I'll keep it in mind, but I was hoping for a stacked middle and the functionality described in the hum sing hum article using a simple five way switch if possible.

 

@Max1 Any progress with solving this?

 

Thanks for the bump greco.

 

It may be a wiring error.
Are you capable of reading schematics, with confidence?
I ask this question because I believe that if you convert the wiring diagram to a schematic, you will recognize the fault.

Edit: maybe you could clarify the question marked area: what is connected or not connected.

 

Thanks for the response Paul.
I don't know how to turn the wiring diagram into a proper electrical schematic so I guess it's time I learned. I naively assumed I could just swap out the single middle in the hum sing hum article with a stacked pickup with the leads reversed and have it work.
All the wires at the question mark are joined (soldered to a lug washer under the volume pot that is also wired to the side of the volume pot, then run to ground on the output jack).
I dismantled the connections to the tone pot, the wires from the five-way switch to the push/pull switch and the wire from switch lug 2 to ground, and the pickups appear to emit signals matching the different switch positions (everything is currently out of the guitar as I try to sort this out).
Adding the wire from switch lug 2 to ground kills the middle three switch positions.
I checked the pickups, the pots, the switch and the output jack with a multimeter and they all appear to be working as required.

 

Below is the layout of a CTS 18VRG pot with the push-pull switch.
Do you know if you have this CTS model?
I have attached the datasheet for this pot.
If your pot is this part then, 2 and 5 are the center contacts which I believe are C1 and C2 on your diagram.
The sliders of the switch are connected to 2 and 3 for one pole of the switch and 5 and 6 are connected to the other pole...it is a double-pole, double throw (DPDT) switch.
The switch is shown in the extended position so when it is pushed in: 1 and 2 are connected for one pole and 4 and 5 are connected of the other pole.
All this info can be viewed in the datasheet.

​

Let us know if this is the pot that you have.

 

Unfortunately that's not the pot, and for some reason the pot I have doesn't show up on the cts website you pulled your sheet from.
Online sellers just refer to it as a CTS DPDT pot, although I gather from the Stewmac website it is likely a #450S series (which also doesn't show up on the cts website)
Attached is a picture.

It has holes into which to solder the wires for the switch rather than extended lugs to solder onto, and the holes are marked and arranged as per my drawing with three holes staggered over three rather than three stacks of two. It's shorter than pots with 3 stacks of 2 pins, which is why it's required (very tight cavity)
If you look at the bottom of the pot you will see six solder marks in two columns of three that are labelled. It is my understanding that this "diagram" matches most push/pull pots with two columns of three pins, and is provided to help you figure out how to wire the pot when using a wiring diagram with a more standard push/pull pot.
From what I've read/seen/heard, C1 and C2 are always open, 4 and 2 are connected to them when the pot is depressed, 3 and 1 are connected to them when the pot is pulled.
And the multimeter tells me that the wires coming out of 1 and 3 do not connect to C1 and C2 when the pot is depressed, and are connected when it is pulled.

 

Unfortunately that's not the pot, and for some reason the pot I have doesn't show up on the cts website you pulled your sheet from.
Online sellers just refer to it as a CTS DPDT pot, although I gather from the Stewmac website it is likely a #450S series (which also doesn't show up on the cts website)
Attached is a picture. View attachment 617698

It has holes into which to solder the wires for the switch rather than extended lugs to solder onto, and the holes are marked and arranged as per my drawing with three holes staggered over three rather than three stacks of two. It's shorter than pots with 3 stacks of 2 pins, which is why it's required (very tight cavity)
If you look at the bottom of the pot you will see six solder marks in two columns of three that are labelled. It is my understanding that this "diagram" matches most push/pull pots with two columns of three pins, and is provided to help you figure out how to wire the pot when using a wiring diagram with a more standard push/pull pot.
From what I've read/seen/heard, C1 and C2 are always open, 4 and 2 are connected to them when the pot is depressed, 3 and 1 are connected to them when the pot is pulled.
And the multimeter tells me that the wires coming out of 1 and 3 do not connect to C1 and C2 when the pot is depressed, and are connected when it is pulled.

Okay, thanks for informing me of this. It appears that your part is specifically built by CTS for another manufacturer and is not sold to the public, by CTS so it is actually a proprietary part...it is not open-sourced by CTS...it would be interesting if the CTS VRG series is any better or lower cost than the 450S types however, a datasheet would be required for the 450S...I hate it when they do this crap.

 

I found this on a StewMac site and wonder if contacting them for more details about their "unique control pots" might help?

 

@Max1 Where did you buy the pot?

BTW...I forgot to mention...Very impressive drawing in your initial post.

 

It was bought from Next Gen Guitar, a guitar components shop (order online, pickup at the front desk or ship) local to the Ottawa area. Wide range of stuff in stock with fast and reliable service.
The pot is also featured in a lot of the push-pull pot wiring videos I watched before starting to assemble all the pieces that I thought I needed, so I'd assumed it was a standard component for tight guitar cavities. As far as I can tell it works as required, and fits the cavity with a couple of mm over top to spare, so I currently can't see it being the problem apart from how it's wired to function in the setup.
If you're not poking fun at my drawing, you are too kind.
If you are, I appreciate the ribbing, and would suggest it's indicative of my current struggle to comprehend what's going on.
Thanks again for the help.

 

I am totally serious about my admiration of your drawing!

Guitar wiring can be extremely exasperating and is often solved by thoroughly checking and changing only one (often overlooked) aspect of the circuit, resoldering a cold looking joint/reviewing continuity of the entire circuit. Captain Obvious at your service .

@jbealsmusic ,(Jon) the owner of NextGen, is a forum member here. He might be able to comment on your drawing, etc. especially as he is the seller. In addition, he is very skilled with guitar wiring.
NextGen is an excellent supplier in all regards and I have been buying from them since they opened.

Try cursing at it, stepping away from it and coming back refreshed and with a clear "outlook".

 

 

Try cursing at it, stepping away from it and coming back refreshed and with a clear "outlook".

If that doesn't work, I usually bang it a few times with a befuddled look on my face. If that doesn't do it, it must be something wrong with the components. 😜

View attachment 617127
I have this setup currently wired up, but only the neck and bridge humbucker make any noise. Any coil split position, even the middle pickup isolated, lead to no output at all. The push-pull function on the volume pot cuts all sound to every pickup when activated.

If you wired it up like this drawing, you're losing signal with the coil split engaged because you're inadvertently grounding the entire signal due to how you wired it. When the coil split is engaged you're connecting ground to lugs 1 and 3 on the selector switch, which is connected to the common, so it is grounding out your entire signal.

Solution: The joined wires from the neck and bridge that you want to coil split shouldn't go to the selector switch, they should be going directly to the push pull. You actually don't need anything at all wired to lugs 1-4 on the selector switch.

• Bridge Pickup W&B wires currently connected to selector switch lug 3 in your picture should be connected directly to C2 on the push-pull switch.
• Neck Pickup W&B wires currently connected to selector switch lug 1 in your picture should be connected directly to C1 on the push-pull switch.

Assuming everything else was followed accurately and there are no other errors, that should fix it.

All that said, with the coil split engaged, your guitar won't be hum cancelling in positions 2 and 4 because the middle pickup is a humbucker itself (stacked single coil). If you want it to still be hum cancelling in those positions, you'd also need to ground the dummy coil when you coil split. Unfortunately, with the parts you have, that's not possible. It was a VERY BAD design choice for Kaish to permanently join lugs 4 and 5 on their switch, making one single common lug for both sets of lugs (1-3 and 6-8).

(What's the point in even having the extra set of lugs if they go to the same common? It completely defeats the purpose having the extra lugs, which should be for a separate pole. There are no benefits to joining the commons, only drawbacks. But, that's a rant for another day.)​

Normally, blade switches have two distinct poles, each with their own common. With a better designed switch, you could send the B&W neck and bridge to lugs 1 and 3 as in your original drawing, but you'd then connect the common from that pole to C1 on the push-pull. Then send the joined wires from the stacked single coil to C2 on the push-pull. Ground to 1 and 3 on the push-pull. With that done, when you pull the pot to coil split you'll be coil splitting all of them at the same time, essentially giving you 3 single coils.

 

Thank you so much, that helps a lot.
If I'm understanding correctly, the constant physical connection on the switch between 4 and 5 is the thing I overlooked, and if I made the changes you detailed that keep that switch: with the push/pull down the guitar would play the humbuckers unsplit in all five positions (neck, neck mid, mid, mid bridge, bridge) and with the push/pull up would play the same but with neck and bridge humbuckers split (thus introducing hum in positions 2 and 4 because of the stacked pickup)(?)
But if I were able to fit a five way switch without a fixed connection between 4 and 5 (something I'm not sure I can given the space constraints and existing fastener spacings I have to deal with- the switch handle emerges from a slot in the finished wood face) and make the second set of changes you detailed, with the push/pull down it would engage the humbuckers as above, but with the push/pull up it would engage them as single coils in the same five combinations (?)
Sorry to bother you again after such a detailed answer, I just want to make sure I understand the final result of each.

 

Thank you so much, that helps a lot.
If I'm understanding correctly, the constant physical connection on the switch between 4 and 5 is the thing I overlooked, and if I made the changes you detailed that keep that switch: with the push/pull down the guitar would play the humbuckers unsplit in all five positions (neck, neck mid, mid, mid bridge, bridge) and with the push/pull up would play the same but with neck and bridge humbuckers split (thus introducing hum in positions 2 and 4 because of the stacked pickup)(?)

Correct!

But if I were able to fit a five way switch without a fixed connection between 4 and 5 (something I'm not sure I can given the space constraints and existing fastener spacings I have to deal with- the switch handle emerges from a slot in the finished wood face) and make the second set of changes you detailed, with the push/pull down it would engage the humbuckers as above, but with the push/pull up it would engage them as single coils in the same five combinations (?)

Correct, including the middle pickup. So, your instrument would essentially function as a standard SSS guitar. Hum cancelling in 2 and 4, and single coil in all other positions.

Sorry to bother you again after such a detailed answer, I just want to make sure I understand the final result of each.

No problem. You nailed it.

 

@jbealsmusic , @Paul Running and others.

Thanks for all wonderful help you provided to this new forum member.
I am hopeless with anything involving switching beyond "ON < > OFF"

 

And now I get to truly demonstrate my ignorance.....
I'm stuck with a linear switch type because my replacement switch can't be talller than 30mm and needs its fasteners spaced at roughly 41.3mm o.c.
Does this mean that I'm looking for something that doesn't exist (ie a linear switch with 8 or more lugs and separate commons)?
I've been looking at Schaller switches that appear to tick all the boxes but from the info available I'm still unclear whether lugs 4 and 5 in them are permanently connected in a way I can't see (unlike in the Kaish where I can see they are connected) which would render them incapable of splitting all three coils through the push-pull as discussed.

 

Here's the schematic for the Schaller:

 

Thank you Paul, I think it's finally beginning to sink in.
In the Schaller S, 4 and 8 are separate commons.
So if I run hot from neck to lug 3, from mid to lug 1 and from bridge to lug 2 (kind of counterintuitive order but from the schematic you can see why) and from their common 4 to the volume input, the switch will engage neck, neck mid, mid, mid bridge, and bridge as it moves through positions, without ever involving any of lugs 5 to 8.
But as it moves through the positions, it also makes another set of identical (but completely separated) connections between lugs 5 through 8.
Which (among other options) allows me to mimic the hot wiring with black and white wires (ie neck to 7, middle to 5, bridge to 6) and then connect 8 to either the c1 or c2 input of the push pull switch, and the corresponding 1 or 3 of the push/pull switch to ground.
Then, regardless of switch position, whichever pups are engaged will be split once the push/pull is pulled.
Which illustrates the point jbealsmusic was making about the importance of independent commons in the switch.
I think?
I'm only too happy to hear what I'm misunderstanding now....

 

Just a few notes... The Schaller switch does not match the screw spacing measurements you provided (it's 40.7mm oc). Next Gen does not stock a switch that matches those dimensions. CRL and Oak Grigsby have the same screw spacing (approximately 41.3mm), but they are deeper than 30mm. For a replacement switch, you'd have to find another supplier or try special ordering one.

Or, if you're comfortable and skilled enough to disassemble your switch, you might be able to modify your current switch to split/separate the two common lugs from each other. You also risk permanently damaging the switch if you mess it up, so that's up to you.

Thank you Paul, I think it's finally beginning to sink in.
In the Schaller S, 4 and 8 are separate commons.
So if I run hot from neck to lug 3, from mid to lug 1 and from bridge to lug 2 (kind of counterintuitive order but from the schematic you can see why) and from their common 4 to the volume input, the switch will engage neck, neck mid, mid, mid bridge, and bridge as it moves through positions, without ever involving any of lugs 5 to 8.
But as it moves through the positions, it also makes another set of identical (but completely separated) connections between lugs 5 through 8.

Your understanding here is correct.

But, the wiring should be....

• Bridge hot to 1
• Middle hot to 3
• Neck hot to 2
• Common 4 to volume pot

Then the coil splits:

• Bridge BW to 7
• Neck BW to 6
• Common 8 to C1 on the push-pull
• Middle BW to C2 on the push-pull

Then the push-pull switch:

• 1 and 3 both go to ground

The reason for that scheme is, you don't want the middle BW to be connected to the neck and bridge BW. If you put the middle BW on the switch too, they'll always be connected to each other in positions 2 and 4 on the switch.

 

I have never checked out the Schaller site before so thank-you for the lead. They do offer a fair bit of info and one of the few sites that presents schematics. If you have not already reviewed, attached is the HSH that they show. I believe that you could use it as reference when adapting your custom system.

 

Your linked .pdf appears as though it would be an excellent reference. Thanks for posting it.

 

Well, unfortunately I'm back.
Finally got my hands on the Schaller S+T 5 way switch and had some time to work on it, so I wired it up as previously discussed which (unless I'm mistaken) is as per the following diagram:
(Edited: because this project is cursed, I posted the second diagram twice, have now edited to place the correct diagram below, then actually got them backwards and had to reverse them, to show how the wiring was done once I got my hands on the Schaller)

Unfortunately the results were:
Position 1- mid pickup
Position 2- mid pickup
Position 3- nothing
Position 4- neck pickup
Position 5- neck and mid pickup.
Same pickups are active/not active in each position when the push/pull pot is engaged (lifted), but I can't really tell if it's splitting coils because (trying to learn from my mistakes) I've wired components up outside the guitar (wires soldered to components where required, then joined to other wires with alligator clips or tiny marrettes) and so in order to check pickups I have a taut guitar string held by screws on spacers over a stick that I pluck over each, which tells me if a pup is working (don't want to keep tapping the magnets which are finished black), not so great at indicating the exact type of sound it's making.
Checked all the wires and connections against the diagram three times in case I'd made mistakes.
All the solder joints appear solid, all the wires were visibly physically connected as per the diagram.
Unfortunately the multimeter we had access to isn't currently working (best project ever) so I currently can't check for continuity that way.
Revisiting the Schaller schematic, I think I might have the lugs in the wrong order.
Following is a print of the schematic with my handwritten notes beside each about what to connect where, and the changes that I believe result as you move through the positions:

Which (unless I'm mistaken) translates into the following wiring diagram:

So I wired it up following the above, checked all the wires and connections (three separate times), and now I get:
Position 1: Neck
Position 2: Neck and mid
Position 3: Mid
Position 4: Mid
Position 5: nothing.
And like before, all pickups are active/nonactive in the same order when the push/pull pot is engaged, but I can't really hear whether the coils are split.

So between this and the previous setup, naturally I panicked thinking I've done something to the bridge pup. So I swapped them around (bridge in neck position, neck in bridge position) which produced the same result, so the bridge pickup works, just not in positions 4 and 5.

If anyone can see anything I'm overlooking, I'd love to hear from you.

Or if you know what I've done in undertaking this project that has so enraged the Guitar Gods, and how I can appease them, that would be great too.....

 

Revisiting the Schaller schematic, I think I might have the lugs in the wrong order.

Correct.

It should be:
Lug 1: Middle Hot
Lug 2: Neck Hot
Lug 3: Bridge Hot
Lug 4: Common to Vol
Lug 5: ...empty...
Lug 6: Neck B/W
Lug 7: Bridge B/W
Lug 8: Common to Switch C1

Middle B/W should go to Switch C2

Switch 1 & 3 should connect to ground.

You got this!

 

 

Thanks for this Paul, I'll set about trying to translate it into a wiring diagram.
Based on the schematic, though, won't this end up having the neck and bridge placement reversed, given the Schaller schematic shows lugs 2 and 6 connecting to common in positions 4 and 5, and lugs 3 and 7 connecting to common in positions 1 and 2, and not the other way around(?)
Sorry if that is a stupid question, still trying to get my ahead around this stuff.

 

Actually, I am sorry for posting the incorrect schematic for your application.
Please verify the one below for accuracy and the record:

 

Can you take pictures of the actual wiring inside the guitar for us to review?

 

Unfortunately it is presently all spread out on the workbench, short lengths of wires soldered to the switch, pots and jack, and then a variety of wires connecting them together either with marrettes or alligator clips attached on the ends of the wires. After the debacle of the Kaish switch, I don't want to end up wiring everything to suit in the tight control pocket (and risk damaging the body finish) then find out it doesn't work. Or to be re-soldering components like the new switch or the push pull pot.
All of which makes it kind of impossible to usefully capture in a photograph.
I'm sorry, I realize that's not a helpful response.

 

Here's a pic of what the wiring looked like with the Kaish switch in place, which gives you an idea of how cramped it is. I'm not that comfortable soldering (worried about wrecking the body or the component) so I solder short lengths of wire to components outside the body where I have better access and control and can make sure I have good join, then put them in the body and solder connecting wires, covering the joins with heat shrink tubing, so I can make those connections just outside of the cavity. Also makes it easier to disassemble, which has proved to be more important than we initially anticipated.
Sorry if the photo makes you cringe. It's our first ever guitar build, and we don't really know what we're doing.

 

Here's a pic of what the wiring looked like with the Kaish switch in place

It doesn't make me cringe. It looks like how most people's guitars look inside. I've seen far worse! But, I can't really assist with the current wiring issue using an old picture of the previous wiring.

Unfortunately it is presently all spread out on the workbench, short lengths of wires soldered to the switch, pots and jack, and then a variety of wires connecting them together either with marrettes or alligator clips attached on the ends of the wires. After the debacle of the Kaish switch, I don't want to end up wiring everything to suit in the tight control pocket (and risk damaging the body finish) then find out it doesn't work. Or to be re-soldering components like the new switch or the push pull pot.
All of which makes it kind of impossible to usefully capture in a photograph.
I'm sorry, I realize that's not a helpful response.

Sometimes disassembling and cleaning everything to start over from scratch is best route to go. That can often unintentionally eliminate an error that you/we may not be seeing.

Using the numbers on the Schaller S&T 5-way switch, they should be connected as follows:
Lug 1) Middle Hot
Lug 2) Neck Hot
Lug 3) Bridge Hot
Lug 4) Common to Vol
Lug 5) ...empty...
Lug 6) Neck B/W
Lug 7) Bridge B/W
Lug 8) Common to Switch C1

Middle B/W should go to Switch C2

Switch 1 & 3 should connect to ground.

That said, maybe adding the coil splitting is creating an unnecessary complication. Maybe you should just hook up the first half to get it working correctly first. Then, if that's working correctly, add the neck and bridge coil splits and test again. If all is working at that point, then finally add middle one, if you still find it necessary.

 

It doesn't make me cringe. It looks like how most people's guitars look inside. I've seen far worse! But, I can't really assist with the current wiring issue using an old picture of the previous wiring.

Sometimes disassembling and cleaning everything to start over from scratch is best route to go. That can often unintentionally eliminate an error that you/we may not be seeing.

Using the numbers on the Schaller S&T 5-way switch, they should be connected as follows:
Lug 1) Middle Hot
Lug 2) Neck Hot
Lug 3) Bridge Hot
Lug 4) Common to Vol
Lug 5) ...empty...
Lug 6) Neck B/W
Lug 7) Bridge B/W
Lug 8) Common to Switch C1

Middle B/W should go to Switch C2

Switch 1 & 3 should connect to ground.

That said, maybe adding the coil splitting is creating an unnecessary complication. Maybe you should just hook up the first half to get it working correctly first. Then, if that's working correctly, add the neck and bridge coil splits and test again. If all is working at that point, then finally add middle one, if you still find it necessary.

I really appreciate your patience, and I'm sorry I've obliged you to repeat yourself so often.
This morning I revisited the wiring based on the above, but removed the push/pull pot from the switch and the middle pickup.
If I leave the BW's unattached to anything (but each pair twisted together) the humbuckers work in all positions properly, and then if I touch the corresponding BW wires to ground I can hear the coils splitting in each position, so it seems clear I've done something to the push pull pot.
With the multimeter MIA, I will desolder, resolder, clean it this evening, see if that helps or if I need a new pot.
Thanks again.

 

To be clear, I will also follow your advice about adding them incrementally.