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Discussion Starter #1
This one might get ugly, GM is looking at some pretty deep concessions this time around.

GM hit by UAW strike
Marathon bargaining session fails to produce deal as 73,000 UAW members start strike; talks said to continue.
By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer
September 24 2007: 12:13 PM EDT


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The United Auto Workers union launched a nationwide strike at General Motors facilities on Monday as 73,000 UAW members started walking off the job and hitting the picket lines at the nation's largest automaker.

But negotiations continued past the 11 a.m. ET start of the strike, according to GM spokeswoman Kathryn McBride. McBride would not address the issues that had prevented an agreement that could have avoided a strike. A union spokesman was not immediately available for comment; the union has scheduled a press conference for 12:15 p.m. ET.
 

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I guess they wont be happy until all their jobs are in India............
 
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Time for the people who WANT to work to line up and SCAB!


Union Schmunion!
 

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Yes the workers are so hard done by, having their lives ruined by the corporation. I guess Toyota has daily whippings and beatings to ensure they dont unionize..........
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
You cannot blame the workers (Union Members) for the state of the automotive industry today. You can't blame them for the situation that is going on today either (strike). The "company" gave them these things years ago. The worst of them being the jobs bank program and the outrageous health care system. There are not many places on earth that you can retire out of and have full health care benefits for the rest of your life and your spouse included. There are no places on earth that you can sit at home for 3 years and recieve a pay cheque, there are housands of UAW members that have not worked in years and have been paid out of the jobs bank.

These systems and agreements have now come back to haunt GM. They gave it away when profits were huge and all they wanted was more profits. So in order to keep the rank and file working they gave away all kinds of nonsense. So who's fault is that? Certainly not the UAW. Now that they find themselves totally un-competitive with the offshores, due mainly to bad management, they are coming after everyone for the money. Suppliers, workers etc.

The gap between the hourly rate of the offshore and Big 3 is about $25 an hour. This is all in the benefits area. So now that the whole thing is blowing up, GM wants to pass it over to the UAW to manage. That may end up happening.
 

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Time for the people who WANT to work to line up and SCAB!
...from simple minds come simple solutions. but, perhaps i'm missing something here. i haven't seen any indication that the uaw members don't want to work. but, in the interest of keeping an open mind, i'm completely willing to be convinced.

-dh
 

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One problem with your argument about Japanese cars not having health care costs, Paul: Japanese health insurance is not free. Sure, there is the national health care plan, but it isn't free. We have the same system here in Korea. Premiums vary according to taxable income. The employer pays half of the premiums the employee pays the other half. In any case, auto manufacturers have some explaining to do concerning the fact that they haven't adjusted their prices in line with the Canadian dollar being on par with the American.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
True is true. It's really the legacy costs that are killing them. I think what you are going to see coming out of these talks is a transformation of the current health care benefits package. You are going to see any new employees (when and if any are hired) will have a brand new structure and there will be no full benefits after retirement. At best it will be some kind of co-pay system.

I think you will also see a lot of things currently covered for pensioners dropped and maybe some co-pay added. But for the most part anyone already retired should remain fairly un-scathed.

You have to really think hard about how stupid and costly this current system really is. Take a person that was hired at GM at say age 22. Worked 30 years and out. Thats full pension at 52 years of age. The "new" 60 is histories 40... so people are living well into their 80's for the most part. Thats another 30 years GM is paying health care for that worker. So for many an employee GM would be covering health care cost for 60 plus years.

It was nonsense then, it's nonsense now.
 

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Sounds to me like a pretext to move the factories abroad. If they were making a product that people actually wanted to buy, they wouldn't have any problems. Then there's 'leasing' cars. They really messed up with that one. In the short term, they were making huge profits (and the shareholders were happy). But, now leases are eating at their sales. People are so happy with leasing cars that they don't want to buy second hand cars, so the manufacturers aren't able to turn a profit buy selling the same car twice as they expected.
 

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You cannot blame the workers (Union Members) for the state of the automotive industry today. You can't blame them for the situation that is going on today either (strike). The "company" gave them these things years ago. The worst of them being the jobs bank program and the outrageous health care system. There are not many places on earth that you can retire out of and have full health care benefits for the rest of your life and your spouse included. There are no places on earth that you can sit at home for 3 years and recieve a pay cheque, there are housands of UAW members that have not worked in years and have been paid out of the jobs bank.

These systems and agreements have now come back to haunt GM. They gave it away when profits were huge and all they wanted was more profits. So in order to keep the rank and file working they gave away all kinds of nonsense. So who's fault is that? Certainly not the UAW. Now that they find themselves totally un-competitive with the offshores, due mainly to bad management, they are coming after everyone for the money. Suppliers, workers etc.

The gap between the hourly rate of the offshore and Big 3 is about $25 an hour. This is all in the benefits area. So now that the whole thing is blowing up, GM wants to pass it over to the UAW to manage. That may end up happening.

GM found out pretty quickly that the advantage of making cars in Korea was only a few dollars an hour per worker...and Korean autoworkers go on strike as often as the seasons change. I really don't know why they bought Daewoo.
 

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When I drive Marnies Aveo, I ask the same question.
Let me let you in on a little secret that GM doesn't want you to know: almost nobody drives a GM-Daewoo in Korea.

It's not that people dislike Daewoo, they just prefer Hyundai. Simply put, Hyundais are far better cars. Ever test drive one of the new Santa Fe or the Vera Cruz? I'd challenge anyone to say Korean cars are bad after riding in one of those. Those are smooth rides. It's like being in a 4x4 Lincoln Town Car.

PS. The few people who buy Daewoos nowadays change the Daewoo grill to the GM one. Most of them change the grill because they want to be noticed. Being that Korea is a highly hierarchical society, prestige counts for a lot here and foreign made cars are seen as a luxury, a status symbol...which is why they are sold at ridiculous markups (Hyundais are more expensive in Korea than in Japan, but that's another rant for another day). People also think they are safer rides...not by design but because people are more careful when they see imports on the road. They worry about causing an accident and sending their insurance premiums through the roof.
 

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well the cheap hyundai...i forget the model...their cheapest one...sucks
A cheap car usually sucks. It's made cheap to bring you to the lot so that you'll leave with a more expensive model. One thing I noticed, Hyundais sold in Canada have larger engines then the ones sold in Korea...but their interior sucks in comparison.
 

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Hyundai opened a design facility in California in 2003, which is probably why many of their new SUV are named after American cities (and dare I say, the reason why they make nicer looking cars).
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Does anybody remember the 1st generation Hyundai cars, the Pony? Aside from rear wheel drive, (tail out fun in the winter), they were a POS. They have been forgiven by the buying public here to a large degree, and they make some decent cars. The 1st generation Civic in the mid 70's suffered fatal rust on a regular basis, and again Honda is forgiven.

The Asian manufacturers seem to have successfully navigated a pretty steep learning curve, and have an excellent quality plan, and many North Americans seem well pleased to pay a premium for that. From my perspective, I have yet to have a North American car last me less than 10 years, and that includes the '77 Malibu in which I learned to drive. I'm a low kms guy, averaging about 10 000/year, although there was one year where my wife and I drove less than 10 000 in two vehicles combined. That helps the fatigue life of the vehicle. I am religious on 3 month oil changes, and I follow the maintenance recommendations to the letter. In the winter I take my vehicles through the car wash once a week to knock off the road salt. I change all fluids every two years. Coolant, tranny, brakes. If it can drip, I change it.

I've had a few mechanical glitches along the way, but nothing punishingly expensive. Right now I'm a 2 Caravan family, (a 2000 and a 2005), and have no complaints. When we bought the '05, we took a serious look at the Element, but couldn't justify the extra $1 000's for the Honda.

IMHO, nobody is building a really bad car anymore, it's just that some cars are better. Sometimes that "better" is quantifiable, sometimes it ain't. I like the minivan design because I can carry all of my gear. I could do that in the bed of a p'up truck too, but the interior of the van is heated. I try to not give my gear cryogenic treatments.:smile:
It's more styling and curb appeal today than quality. You have to admit that many of the asian cars coming in are sharp looking cars. GM and Ford especially have struggled in the styling department for many years. Chrylser and Dodge have had a few hits the past 5-6 years. Quality is about on par in my opinion.

The younger buying public is only interested in styling today, most of them could not tell you what is under the hood nor care. They also dont care where they are made.
 

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Does anybody remember the 1st generation Hyundai cars, the Pony? Aside from rear wheel drive, (tail out fun in the winter), they were a POS. They have been forgiven by the buying public here to a large degree, and they make some decent cars. The 1st generation Civic in the mid 70's suffered fatal rust on a regular basis, and again Honda is forgiven.

The Asian manufacturers seem to have successfully navigated a pretty steep learning curve, and have an excellent quality plan, and many North Americans seem well pleased to pay a premium for that. From my perspective, I have yet to have a North American car last me less than 10 years, and that includes the '77 Malibu in which I learned to drive. I'm a low kms guy, averaging about 10 000/year, although there was one year where my wife and I drove less than 10 000 in two vehicles combined. That helps the fatigue life of the vehicle. I am religious on 3 month oil changes, and I follow the maintenance recommendations to the letter. In the winter I take my vehicles through the car wash once a week to knock off the road salt. I change all fluids every two years. Coolant, tranny, brakes. If it can drip, I change it.

I've had a few mechanical glitches along the way, but nothing punishingly expensive. Right now I'm a 2 Caravan family, (a 2000 and a 2005), and have no complaints. When we bought the '05, we took a serious look at the Element, but couldn't justify the extra $1 000's for the Honda.

IMHO, nobody is building a really bad car anymore, it's just that some cars are better. Sometimes that "better" is quantifiable, sometimes it ain't. I like the minivan design because I can carry all of my gear. I could do that in the bed of a p'up truck too, but the interior of the van is heated. I try to not give my gear cryogenic treatments.:smile:

Well, apparently Chinese cars aren't doing too well in crash tests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kQGAK550LE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F06LjugtIUo&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZWy_fASSiQ&mode=related&search=
 

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Sorry, let me clear up what I think is true.
1) Health care ain't free anywhere.
If I understand this wrong, somebody chime in, please.
...i don't think anyone labours under the misconception that health care is "free", except in the context of socialized medicare, in which instance we all understand that we are paying for it through our taxes.

-dh
 

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well the cheap hyundai...i forget the model...their cheapest one...sucks
...its called the "accent". i drove one, trouble free, for five years, roughly 250,000 kms. amazing car for the money. it incorporated many luxury options normally only found on very expensive vehicles.

-dh
 
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