[GuitarsCanada]

Will we ever hear the end of the 9/11 episode. Will the world or at least North America, ever return to "normal". I am sooooo sick of hearing about terrorists, Iraq, Iran and generally the entire middle east. Now this Zacarias Moussaoui thing... yeah, so they found him guilty, he is "eligible" for the death penalty. Who the f%^$ cares. This guy is about as whacked out as they come. Can you imagine the money that has been wasted on this trial.

This freak is nothing but a twisted little nabob, and we, or should I say the American press, make him out to be some kind of 9/11 mastermind. Let's debate his importance for the next 10 years.

I remember watching those attacks on the WTC live that morning on CNN... and I also remember thinking to myself at the time... this will last for years. I think even my estimates at the time will pale in reality. We are over 4 years into it and there is no end in site.

:sport-smiley-002:

 

[GuitarsCanada]

Very good synopsis Walden. I agree with most of what you are saying.. however I have to stick to my comment that I am soooooo sick of hearing it everyday on the news. It most likely will last through my lifetime so may as well get used to it. Political ramifications? Tons.

 

[GuitarsCanada]

So true... there are so many domestic issues that need addressing as well. I was in LA a few years back and I could have sworn I was in downtown Mexico City. Estimates of as much as 11 million illegals and about 3 million of them in California alone.

The events of 9/11 were tragic, dispicable, inhuman etc etc..... no debating that. But the directions it has taken since are questionable at best. You are right on the middle east though, there would be no interest in those people or culture if not for the Black Gold, Texas Tea... :2guns:

 

[GuitarsCanada]

I was in the Bahamas this past January and the whole Canadian Fleet was in there. All three ships. They were laying around soaking up the sun and handing out brochures of some kind. Made me almost want to join up.

 

[GuitarsCanada]

We are addicted to the black gold... can't live without it. What will be the alternative though, and how far out in the future is it. Until that happens we have to sleep with the devil

 

[GuitarsCanada]

So another anniversary passes. More nonsense at the checkpoints and another day closer to the next "attack".

I am currently reading the 911 commision report. Pretty thick book but it is very interesting. There was total confusion that morning. More than you would even expect with such a thing. The one that got me so far was the last plane (United 93) which ended up going down in PA after the passenger revolt, flew for 45 minutes or so after being identified as a hijacked flight. They had military aircraft airborne in two separate areas but none were ever ordered to move on it or even try to contact it. Several commercial and private aircraft reported it and had visual on it. A lack of command and communication caused all of that. If not for the people on that plane doing what they did, which IMO they had to do, that plane would have flown to whatever it's final destination was going to be totally uninhibited. This is after 3 planes had already crashed and this one was postively ID'd as a fourth.

All these command and communication channels have since been fixed and I would assume that should another incident occur like that, they would be blown out of the sky pretty quick.

In a related note. It appears that less than 7% of all cargo loaded on a plane is ever screened. So while you are waiting in huge lines at the airport, having your nuts and nail clippers x-rayed... they could very well be loading a bomb on board through the cargo area unchecked.

 

[GuitarsCanada]

A highly debatable subject and one that is sometimes filled with emotion. Still, it can be debated with open minds and restraint. So far it's looking good. :smile:

 

[GuitarsCanada]

I will chime in one more time on this one. I like what you have to say Milkman. Any sane person would have to agree with what you have said. But in my opinion it is looking at the world the way we want or wish it to be. Un fortunately it is not that way, at least not yet.

I too want a world where my kids can freely travel to any country and see and enjoy the different cultures and people. To travel without fear of being blown up or being kidnapped and having their heads cut off for something they do not understand nor have any part of. Growing up in the west has it's advantages. We are a free and open society. We have a our share of bad guys and criminals but for the most part you will not be condemened for something you believe in alone, nor for what god you worship.

We speak of negotiation with extremists. How can you negotiate with a people that see you as the devil by your very existence? They have been programmed from birth to see people from the west as the enemy of god. This cannot be negotiated away. Their way is the only way. Your very way of life, your freedoms and thoughts are totally against their teachings and that will not change. Maybe in the eyes of god we are all bad, I don't know. Maybe we should all be Muslims, I don't know. What I do know is that I was raised to "live and let live" and not to tell others how they should live their lives and what they should or should not believe.

So this opens up the question "should the west go to places with totally different views?" Maybe not. It is foolish to beleive that the west can force it's way of life on nations like Iraq and most of the middle east. Their ways are not our ways. Who's way is better? Who cares.... I say if you live in Iraq and see our way as better, come on over bro, we will take you. If you live here in the west and like their way... go there. But you cannot force the customs on each other. It wont work.

I personally choose to live here and stay here. I don't agree with the customs and ways of many of the countries in the middle east. I also don't care what they are doing over there, it's their custom and their laws. But I will not be preached to by Osama and have him tell me that his way is the only way and I am the devil in God's view becuase I live the way I do. There will always come a time when you have to fight for "your" way. History has many examples of this.

The US has the opinion that if they go to Iraq and "free" them that there will suddenly be a McDonalds on every street corner. It is not their way. They have their own customs and beliefs and I say let them be. You can't force them to think the way we do. Should we even try? Again, who is to say that our way is the right way?

China is also a huge issue. We are up to our eyeballs in trade with them yet this is a communist country. I have a friend that lives in Hong Kong. It's still a very dangerous place once you leave the confines of that area. He had a friend that went over to mainland China last week shopping. He was beaten to a pulp, robbed and then could not get back because all his travel docs were stolen. He is still stuck over there.

I have another friend that flies commercial aircraft in Africa. He has been hijacked twice in 5 years and the stories he tells are shocking.

We live in a very special place my friends. There are many places on earth that are not so nice. I choose our way, and I would fight to keep it.

 

[GuitarsCanada]

You have hit the crux of the bisquit Milkman. Nobody has done a thing to Canada (as of yet). So this now brings up the biggest question that we as Canadians face. What level of involvement do we wish to have in the "War Against Terrorism?).

The Jeanie is out of the bottle friends, it's too late to put him back. Sept 11th 2001 answered that question. For right or for wrong the war has begun. So we must decide what role we are to play in ending it. I personally see the whole thing as an attack on the West. The US has some laws/customs and such that I don't totally agree with, but for the most part they are no different than we are. Our basic beliefs, wants and needs are all the same. We just go about attaining them in different ways. So I say we are in this thing and need to be in it.

I personally believe that these extremists will not back down and cannot be negotiated with. It is only a mater of time before the next attack is launched. Not if, but when.

 

[GuitarsCanada]

Your my kind of thinker Milkman. I agree with everything you just said. But here are a few questions and thoughts I must add.

There is a line that must be drawn and a decision to be made as a nation, what level of help and or assistance do we want to give to oppressed and abused people of the world? Do we want to stand back and watch what is happening in some of these places (Afganistan) for one and say "hey, it's their problem" or do we want to help them? To be honest I am not sure myself. To get involved means a huge commitment, it may even cost Canadian lives.. it has cost us already.

But that decision has to be made. There are many places on earth that can fit into that category. As a nation we have helped many times. But in some of these instances it has been necessary to apply force. We can say, we will help with money and aide but we will leave all the dirty work to the US and Britain? I don't know.

But if we as a people are truly concerned that other human beings are still being treated like dogs and animals in other parts of the world, than I see no half way about it. We are either in or out. Like I have said before in some other posts. Any living being that can grab a kid and saw off his head with a dull machete is a force to be reckoned with. An enemy not to be taken lightly and not to be ignored. The resolve of the North Vietnamese proved that point loud and clear. That was a prime example of what you are talking about. The US went in to "free" these people and open up the "way of the west" to them. They said no thanks.

Clearly the attacks of Sept 11th were a message saying "stay out of our business".. maybe we should have.

 

[GuitarsCanada]

...how is this any different from the views espoused and promoted by north american christian evangelists and fundementalists?

-dh

I guess the only difference I can point out is that these other groups won't kill you if you disagree with them.

 

[GuitarsCanada]

"

first of all, the fact that two enemies are actually talking is monumental in and of itself. however, if a topic of conversation really is necessary, i would have to suggest the cessation of human slaughter as a pretty good starting point.

-dh

This may work and I would support such a thing in a lot of instances. However, this particular enemy sees the killing of us (Americans, Westerner's) as the absolute duty of each and every one of them. You see, to them there is nothing wrong with killing, God has said it's OK, he has actually ordered them to do it to "save the world" from the godless Americans and British and us Canucks too. If they get killed in the process, that's even better cuz now they are going on up as a martyr.. a saint if you were. You have to look at it from inside their head, not ours... they don't think the same way we do. They do not hold the same values.

I would love to hear that negotiation.