The Canadian Guitar Forum banner
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,789 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So as you may have figured out from the title, I have a not so standard wiring idea for my CVC Tele. I'd like to know if anyone has tried this kind of configuration here or something similar. At this point I have no real set preference but I'd like to make the Tele as versatile as possible with the parts I have.

- Bridge: SD ST59-1 (lil '59T) 4 conductors @ 18.02K (8.96K Black/White, 9.03K Red/Green) (stacked)
-Neck: SD SM-2 (Custom Firebird style) 4 conductors (4.16K Black/White, 4.39K Red Green)
- CTS 500K push/pull pot (also have another one)
- 4 way switch (also have a standard 3 way)

Currently I have the Neck pup Red and White wires soldered with only Black (hot ) and Green (gnd) top be used. But this could change depending on what is said in this thread. The bridge currently has all wires available. I only really want 1 push/pull at the Tone, but am reluctantly willing to change the scope if it suits a meaningful purpose to me. Nothings set in stone.

One idea I have with the Tone push/pull is to split the lil 59 and then, with the 4-way, have the split run in series or parallel with the neck. But if it sets up like that, I'm wondering if the bridge is in humbucker mode with push/pull down, what'll happen with the series/parallel with the now lower Output neck?

Maybe I'll leave it there for now as I have a number of other questions/takes on semi split splts and making the single coils sound more "single coily" with an added component like a cap/resistor. This isn't fully fleshed out yet so this is why I'd like anyone's opinion or experience with non standard Tele wiring. I'm probably an idiot for going nuts on the idears, but I'd also like to experience not so standard wiring discumbobulation configurations for later use if it comes to that in another guitar.

Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Telecaster / 339
Joined
·
829 Posts
Have you tried series/parallel on a tele before?
I have this option as a push/push on my volume, and honestly it doesn't come into play that often. I hardly if ever use series.

I'd recommend doing a temporary setup in series, check out the sound and the pickup balance.

If it's not that exciting for you either, you have one less option to consider.

Sent from my A3_Pro using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,789 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Have you tried series/parallel on a tele before?
I have this option as a push/push on my volume, and honestly it doesn't come into play that often. I hardly if ever use series.

I'd recommend doing a temporary setup in series, check out the sound and the pickup balance.

If it's not that exciting for you either, you have one less option to consider.

Sent from my A3_Pro using Tapatalk
No I haven't. Part of the reason for the thread is to get some ideas of what to expect from various configurations. I have the idea that maybe 2 split humbuckers in series will give me a humbuckers type tone but "different. I've set up my LP with the bridge split and regular humbucker neck and I use it fairly often when I do Blues type noodles. I like the sound of both types of pickup so I'm trying to get a feel of where something like that would stand. I'll take your idea of a temporary setup and hopefully run with it if you have some ideas on a good way to try it out. I'm still pretty new to the guitar electroncis so I haven't got a lot of experience in various configurations.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
26,666 Posts
On one of my guitars, the switching arrangement allows me to not only cancel one of the coils on the bridge humbucker, but select which one I want to cancel. Much to my surprise, there is a very noticeable tonal difference between the coil closest to the bridge and its partner. A single-pole-double-throw on-off-on toggle will allow a person to have coil A, both, or coil B. In my experience, worth trying.

Having said that, I gather you are committed to using push-pull pots, rather than adding any toggles. So here's an idea. If you have two push-pull pots, one can be used to cancel coil A on each pickup, and the other to cancel coil B on each pickup. Let's so that one switch cancels the inner coils, and the other cancels the outer coils. When both pickups are on, this would give you 3 possibilities: full, outer coils only, inner coils only. But it would also give 3 possibilities when using only one pickup. So, neck full, neck inner coil, neck outer coil, and the same thing again for the bridge pickup. Nine possibilities in all. The caveat is that if you pull both push-pull switches, you cancel both coils on both pickups. I guess that's the "standby" setting.

Ideally, when using only one coil from each pickup, they provide hum-rejection when in combination.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,789 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
On one of my guitars, the switching arrangement allows me to not only cancel one of the coils on the bridge humbucker, but select which one I want to cancel. Much to my surprise, there is a very noticeable tonal difference between the coil closest to the bridge and its partner. A single-pole-double-throw on-off-on toggle will allow a person to have coil A, both, or coil B. In my experience, worth trying.

Having said that, I gather you are committed to using push-pull pots, rather than adding any toggles. So here's an idea. If you have two push-pull pots, one can be used to cancel coil A on each pickup, and the other to cancel coil B on each pickup. Let's so that one switch cancels the inner coils, and the other cancels the outer coils. When both pickups are on, this would give you 3 possibilities: full, outer coils only, inner coils only. But it would also give 3 possibilities when using only one pickup. So, neck full, neck inner coil, neck outer coil, and the same thing again for the bridge pickup. Nine possibilities in all. The caveat is that if you pull both push-pull switches, you cancel both coils on both pickups. I guess that's the "standby" setting.

Ideally, when using only one coil from each pickup, they provide hum-rejection when in combination.
I was considering what you just mentioned as I was reading the North South configs of the Duncans. My idea was to keep the neck as a full humbucker, pushpull the bridge, and use the 4 way to select the bride single closer to the neck. Right now with my LP pushpull I'm not even certain which coil it's actually using, so I'll need to suss that out. I'll look into it and throw up a wiring diagram if I can figure it out. Thanks a lot for the idea.

Here's the link of what I was reading just the other day that brought me this idea that you suggest.

Mod Garage: Four Ways to Configure a 4-Conductor Humbucker
 

·
Registered
Telecaster / 339
Joined
·
829 Posts
I'll take your idea of a temporary setup and hopefully run with it if you have some ideas on a good way to try it out. I'm still pretty new to the guitar electroncis so I haven't got a lot of experience in various configurations.
I see... to clarify, you're comfortable with the wiring diagrams but not so much with 'hacking' this temporarily - have I got it right?

If so I may retract my suggestion... because I'd actually start with no controls or switches, all wires labeled, and short alligator jumpers to try the combos you're thinking of. Then narrow down which options I'd want to consider for the final wiring. So that might be a very different way of working, and maybe not your cup of tea.

Sent from my A3_Pro using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,789 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I see... to clarify, you're comfortable with the wiring diagrams but not so much with 'hacking' this temporarily - have I got it right?

If so I may retract my suggestion... because I'd actually start with no controls or switches, all wires labeled, and short alligator jumpers to try the combos you're thinking of. Then narrow down which options I'd want to consider for the final wiring. So that might be a very different way of working, and maybe not your cup of tea.

Sent from my A3_Pro using Tapatalk
Let's just say I'm more comfortable with the wiring diagrams but would have to think a bit about the hacking thing. I do have a breadboard with jumpers so I could probably rig something workable for my situation. I was considering doing something like that for cap values anyways so you never know. So you never know. It's not like I'll blow anything up. Xcept my brain thinking about it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,789 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
So after thinking about it for a while last night and again this morning, I think I'm going to go with my original plan. 3 way switch with the bridge lil 59 split w/ push pull and the mini humbucker normal. To keep the control layout simpler. Something I'm considering for this setup is a 2 stage potentiometer for the bridge...something that isn't in the LP. It allows for a resistor ~500K to be place in the push/pull so when you switch to single it also switches the value of the pot to 250K, resulting in a less harsh single coil sound. The thing is it's suggested that you use the Volume pot as a push/pull...which leads to a question.

Is there a difference tonally in using Volume pot as opposed to the same value Tone pot for the push/pull? I've only used push/pull on Tone Pots.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,418 Posts
The push pull it just a SPST or is it DPDT (I always forget) switch so it shouldn't matter as long as the wiring is correct
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dorian2

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
26,666 Posts
Coil-cancelling does NOT turn a side-by-side PAF-style humbucker into a Strat-style single coil. That doesn't mean the mod is musically pointless. Rather, consider that the sensing area of a Fender-style SC is between the top and bottom of the polepieces. In contrast, because the two coils of a PAF-style pickup have slugs in them that are magnetically coupled together by the bar magnet they are butted up against, the main sensing area is between the tops of the two rows of slugs. When you cut/cancel/shunt one of the two coils, yes you will change the total inductance of the pickup, the number of turns, and output level, but you do NOT change where the sensing area is. Despite having only one coil in action, the sensing area remains the tops of the two rows of slugs. Because of that, there is no change in what or how the pickup senses, just where it places its resonant emphasis. The received wisdom about pot values to use for SC and HB pickups is based on differences in how/what they sense, and the "excessive" treble that some feel a SC provides, because of that. If you're not changing what the pickup senses, then there is no reason to try and mimic a different pot value.

As for push-pull on Tone vs Volume pots, it's really a question of how you normally use those controls. Unless one uses a guitar with a wide variety of pickup types, like the Gibson Nighthawk, or one of the many monstrosities that Steve Morse has used over the years, and need to constantly fiddle with the Tone control, or unless you're an afficionado of "pinky wah" (working the Tone control with your pinky to produce a wah-like swell), the vast majority of players tend to visit their Tone control only rarely, or at least much less often than they fiddle with their Volume. So most players will tend to find having any push-pull functions less disruptive on the Tone pot than the Volume, and many manufacturers who include push-pull switches will stick it on the Tone pot for that reason.

That said, if one is the sort of player who doesn't fiddle with your Volume control very much either, and would rather not drill more holes in your guitar, then a push-pull on the Volume pot as well is not particularly disruptive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,789 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks for that. I'll communicate my intent on a point by point basis where possible. Hopefully it'll give you a good representation of where I am musically and sonically as far as Tone. First off, I've used push/pulls exclusively in the Tone pot as I've always tended to set it a specific way. At about 7 on my guitars. My ears have been sensitive to the higher treble values since day 1 of electrics so I rarely use either the bridge or nec Pots on 10. But it depends on the situation.

Coil-cancelling does NOT turn a side-by-side PAF-style humbucker into a Strat-style single coil.
I'm not looking for a Strat sound at all. I've had the same pup configured in this Tele previously at the bridge using 2 250K pots. Sounded great in single coil mode, but it was waaay too dark and muddy in humbucker mode, even with the Tone cranked. Blanket over amp city in this case, so it had to be corrected. That's why I'm going with 2 500K pots this time. Previously I still had the original SC in the neck, which sounded fantastic by itself. Unfortunately I was unaware at the time the Fender wraps their coils in reverse so I couldn't use the middle position effectively at all. Unless I juiced a couple of my OD settings to accommodate the out of phase tone. Isn't my thing as a Hard Rock player. That led to using the Mini humbucker that was in the LP at 1 time.

Despite having only one coil in action, the sensing area remains the tops of the two rows of slugs. Because of that, there is no change in what or how the pickup senses, just where it places its resonant emphasis.
I'm assuming this goes back to the N/S poles of the 2 SC's wired in series? I'm not very familiar with the technical specs of pups and how they interact yet because I haven't experienced it (to my knowledge) yet. By resonant emphasis, are you talking about the slug closer to the neck vs closer to bridge?

As for push-pull on Tone vs Volume pots, it's really a question of how you normally use those controls. Unless one uses a guitar with a wide variety of pickup types, like the Gibson Nighthawk, or one of the many monstrosities that Steve Morse has used over the years, and need to constantly fiddle with the Tone contro
Over the last number of years, I've begun "fiddling" more with the Tone for specific sounds. Steve Morse happens to be one of my biggest influences on guitar. One man's monstrosity is another man's beautiful shining light from the tonal heavens. ;) SO while I don't necessarily fiddle with the airplane modules that Morse does, his influence has affected the way I handle certain circumstances with regard to Tone and use of the Tone knob. So in short, I probably do more fiddling with the Tone, Volume, and switch controls than a number of other players. I've been a fan of Beck for longer than Morse if that's any indication of where my ear is at and how I try to approach things. Just not to the extreme extent that they do it...not even close really lol.

So long story short, Tone Pot it is. Mostly because that's where I'm used to it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,418 Posts
Actually there are both. You need spst for one coil split and dpst for 2 coil split. You can use 1/2 dpdt as an spst but cannot use an spst as a dpst
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dorian2

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,789 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Re: the screw and slug coil on Duncan pups, I just found this when I searched screw vs slug coil for Duncans.

Courtesy of user Fresh_Start 12/15/2004 9:29PM @ seymourduncan forum. Thanks Fresh_Start...whoever you are.

"Standard" Seymour Duncan wiring is:

Green -> ground
Red & White linked for series connection
Black -> hot on volume/switch

To split the pickup normally, you ground the Red & White connection. This grounds out the screw coil and leaves the slug coil hot.

FWIW the "standard" S-D wiring leaves the screw coil with south polarity, wound clockwise. This is the same as most (but not all Tele) S-D single coil pickups. The slug coil has north polarity, and wired this way is effectively counter-clockwise. That's why a split slug coil is humcancelling combined with a standard (not RWRP) S-D single coil.

If you want to split the pickup so that the screw coil stays hot, you can re-wire it like this:

White -> ground
Black & Green linked for series connection
Red -> hot on volume/switch

Then you ground the Black & Green connection to short out the slug coil, leaving the screw coil hot.
So it appears that the typical wiring is the way I want it anyways. Perfect.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
26,666 Posts
Thanks for that. I'll communicate my intent on a point by point basis where possible. Hopefully it'll give you a good representation of where I am musically and sonically as far as Tone. First off, I've used push/pulls exclusively in the Tone pot as I've always tended to set it a specific way. At about 7 on my guitars. My ears have been sensitive to the higher treble values since day 1 of electrics so I rarely use either the bridge or nec Pots on 10. But it depends on the situation.
A traditional solution to what you describe is to run a small-value capacitor from the volume-pot input to ground. In effect, it serves as a secondary Tone control, at a higher rolloff frequency, and turned down all the way. So, for instance, something between 330pf and 1000pf might be just the ticket for you.
I'm not looking for a Strat sound at all. I've had the same pup configured in this Tele previously at the bridge using 2 250K pots. Sounded great in single coil mode, but it was waaay too dark and muddy in humbucker mode, even with the Tone cranked. Blanket over amp city in this case, so it had to be corrected. That's why I'm going with 2 500K pots this time. Previously I still had the original SC in the neck, which sounded fantastic by itself. Unfortunately I was unaware at the time the Fender wraps their coils in reverse so I couldn't use the middle position effectively at all. Unless I juiced a couple of my OD settings to accommodate the out of phase tone. Isn't my thing as a Hard Rock player. That led to using the Mini humbucker that was in the LP at 1 time.
You should be able to flip the phase of the middle pickup so that it doesn't result in cancellation. I did that very thing yesterday with a S-S-H Telecaster I was wiring. It's a simple matter of flipping the two leads coming from the pickup. I used 3-conductor shielded cable (2 plus shield), so it may have been an easier swap in my case.
I'm assuming this goes back to the N/S poles of the 2 SC's wired in series? I'm not very familiar with the technical specs of pups and how they interact yet because I haven't experienced it (to my knowledge) yet. By resonant emphasis, are you talking about the slug closer to the neck vs closer to bridge?
Not exactly. You have to consider a pickup coil as being a more complex circuit with resonant peaks, just like any microphone or speaker. Changing the inductance of the coil moves the resonant peaks around. One of the reasons why pickup makers make such a big deal over the composition of slugs and base-plates is because those aspects also change the inductance of the coil. That said, the two coils within a humbucker can provide different tones, even though the sensing are still remains between the tops of the two rows of slugs. Think of it this way: imagine you have a very tall Strat pickup with alnico polepieces. Sliding the coil higher up or further down will result in somewhat different tone. Okay, now bend those long-and-tall polepieces into a U-shape, such that both ends point upwards, and the coil is at one end of those polepieces. What you have will be similar to a humbucker, with only one coil being used.
Over the last number of years, I've begun "fiddling" more with the Tone for specific sounds. Steve Morse happens to be one of my biggest influences on guitar. One man's monstrosity is another man's beautiful shining light from the tonal heavens. ;) SO while I don't necessarily fiddle with the airplane modules that Morse does, his influence has affected the way I handle certain circumstances with regard to Tone and use of the Tone knob. So in short, I probably do more fiddling with the Tone, Volume, and switch controls than a number of other players. I've been a fan of Beck for longer than Morse if that's any indication of where my ear is at and how I try to approach things. Just not to the extreme extent that they do it...not even close really lol.
I hope I didn't come across as critical of Morse. I just mentioned his early frankenstein pickup combinations as an instance of where a person might have to adjust tone when using different contrasting pickups.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,789 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Nope, didn't come across that way at all. Thanks for the great technical info.

You should be able to flip the phase of the middle pickup so that it doesn't result in cancellation.
I think you misunderstood. Or I'm not understanding what you're saying here. There is no middle pickup. I simply swapped the original single coil in the neck position with the mini. So in effect it's a dual humbucker Tele with a much lower Neck output.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,789 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Sorry for not making it more clear in the OP. My bad for just using the models of the Duncans. Bridge is a single sized humbucker (lil 59) and the neck is a Duncan mini humbucker. Wordyness off the OP probably didn't help the clarity of the situation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,789 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thought I'd update. I've had an interesting week or so of figuring out different wiring possibilities and probably learning enough to make me semi dangerous. I've decided on the standard 3 way blade with the neck being only mini humbucker, no split coil there. Bridge will be split with push/pull. So for all intents and purposes:

Bridge - Tone down humbucker, Tone up - coil split - single

Middle - either humbucker bridge + mini neck OR Single bridge + mini neck

Neck - Mini only

Here's the wiring so far, with a treble bleed circuit on:



And here's a diagram showing my labelling of the Volume (500K) and Tone (500K). I purposely left out the current connection. As you can see, VL1 is tied to TL1 as per a standard wiring diagram. I'd like to add 2 Tone caps to the push/pull to facilitate the harshness in tone I know will come from a single with the 500K pot. I tested the tone pot connections with continuity and C2(common) is tied to 4 pushed down, and C1 is tied to 1 pulled up. So I'm planning a 22uf cap from 2 to 4 and C2 to TL1. Then a 47uf cap from 1 - 3 with C1 to ground lug on side of Tone pot. Reading about this on the Lindy Fralin how to page, he says that Vl1 should be tied to TL 2 in this situation since is C2 tied to TL1. If any of you have done something similar or know what's up I'd like some verification before moving on. Here's a link to the Fralin schematic. I'm going with Version 1. How To Get 2 Tone Caps on One Push Pull Pot - Fralin Pickups . Hopefully I'm not making it sound more complicated than it is.

 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top