[david henman]

I also find it curious that many advocates against spanking talk as if spanking were synonymous with abuse! I just can't accept that reasoning. Abuse is merely a cruel and violent act. A spanking is a conscious choice as a means to correct a child's behaviour. If one can't see the difference then I don't believe that one could think deeply enough to judge another parent.

...while perhaps not quite "synonymous with abuse", spanking is, ultimately, the act of a grown adult "striking" a small child. there is no getting away from that.

it would be inappropriate and misguided to classify every episode of spanking as a form of abuse.

on the other hand, it would be foolish to think that every episode is conducted out of love and compassion rather than anger, frustration, getting even, vindictiveness, jealousy or even outright intent to harm.

-dh

 

[Wild Bill]

...while perhaps not quite "synonymous with abuse", spanking is, ultimately, the act of a grown adult "striking" a small child. there is no getting away from that.

it would be inappropriate and misguided to classify every episode of spanking as a form of abuse.

on the other hand, it would be foolish to think that every episode is conducted out of love and compassion rather than anger, frustration, getting even, vindictiveness, jealousy or even outright intent to harm.

-dh

Ah Dave, it's sad but true that there are plenty of abusers out there!

Are you not gonna take a kick at my points about methods of correction being appropriate to the age/development level of a child?

 

[david henman]

Ah Dave, it's sad but true that there are plenty of abusers out there!
Are you not gonna take a kick at my points about methods of correction being appropriate to the age/development level of a child?

...i'm just about to head out, wild bill.

i'll have to kick yer ass in the morning.

:tongue:

-dh

 

[sneakypete]

kick it or.....spank it?

 

[GuitaristZ]

kick it or.....spank it?

kick + spank = shpwick?

 

[david henman]

David, I never once spanked my own daughters but to be honest I've never been sure if that was a mistake, specifically when they were small.
The reason I say this is because when a child is small its brain is not developed enough to properly understand an oral argument. Yet it is vital that the child immediately respond properly to a parent's voice in the advent of danger!
Let me give a "ferinstance" here. Suppose you are trying to get your kids into the car (like trying to herd cats!) and your 4 year old walks onto the street in front of an oncoming car. The first thing you want to happen is for your child to immediately stop when you call to him! Better yet, have him immediately come back! At the very least, he should respond appropriately to give you a chance to retrieve him from the danger.
At that age, is there any point in having a nice "talk" in such situations?
When a child is just developing using a swat or two (NOT indiscriminate walloping!) will immediately make a point that the child will remember. Not as a conscious choice but as a reflex. Until the child has achieved enough years I would think that he CAN"T make such conscious choices!
I differed to my wife's beliefs when the girls were so small but frankly I was often terrified to take them out on the street! My girls DID act as if a loud call was merely a preliminary to a "discussion" and I kept an iron grip on them to make sure they didn't stray into danger. By the time they reached 6 or so it was no longer a problem. They were advanced enough to understand when I explained a danger.
Commanding instant obedience in such situations is the OBLIGATION of a responsible parent! I was lucky that we were never in a scary situation but if heaven forbid one of my children had been hurt or worse you can be certain that I would have not been proud to simply claim that "At least I never spanked them!"
I also find it curious that many advocates against spanking talk as if spanking were synonymous with abuse! I just can't accept that reasoning. Abuse is merely a cruel and violent act. A spanking is a conscious choice as a means to correct a child's behaviour. If one can't see the difference then I don't believe that one could think deeply enough to judge another parent.
What's more, I've been blessed with great kids! I know other parents not so fortunate. Kids are born with differing amounts of talent and brain power. So are parents, for that matter! There are some very obvious failures committing repeated break-ins in my neighbourhood. Would judicious spanking have been applicable in such situations?
I dunno, but what the parents DID do has resulted in obvious failure...

...i think your final statement is more accurate.

you raise a couple of interesting points, wild bill.

first off, i think that very small children ARE quite capable of understanding at least the most basic instructions. i have raised two daughters (i had a lot of help!) and now have a 2 1/2 year old grandson and another grandson en route.

my grandson has unbelievable communication skills, in both official languages. but i think he is typical, not above average.

the situation you describe is similar to owning a pet, especially a dog. the number one priority when training a dog is to get it to respond to its name, and to come immediately when called, so that you can prevent it from getting into trouble.

with a child, you had better establish a level of intimate communication. in situations like the one you describe, if your child is in the habit of ignoring you, you are asking for trouble, big time.

again, i cannot help but detect a sense of "failure to communicate" when one has to resort to striking a child in order to get their attention.

when you say that "Kids are born with differing amounts of talent and brain power", are you suggesting that "slower" children may require some form of "physical discipline" as a way of compensating?

-dh

 

[Wild Bill]

the situation you describe is similar to owning a pet, especially a dog. the number one priority when training a dog is to get it to respond to its name, and to come immediately when called, so that you can prevent it from getting into trouble.

Can't say which I prefer - litterbox or diapers!

with a child, you had better establish a level of intimate communication. in situations like the one you describe, if your child is in the habit of ignoring you, you are asking for trouble, big time.

Well, again I make a distinction according to maturity. At 2-3 years the problem is having the child UNDERSTAND you!

again, i cannot help but detect a sense of "failure to communicate" when one has to resort to striking a child in order to get their attention.

Again, yell loud enough and any child will look around to see where it's coming from. My worry is will the child react fast enough in a danger situation.

when you say that "Kids are born with differing amounts of talent and brain power", are you suggesting that "slower" children may require some form of "physical discipline" as a way of compensating?
-dh

I'm not sure, David. As is sometimes painfully obvious, I'm a "techie" guy. I think in terms of what works. I have little patience for things that don't appear to actually work, even if it's politically correct to say they do. I was perfectly capable of spanking one of my kids if I thought it was necessary and of positive benefit to them. Mind you, it would have been an "Ol' Yeller" moment. Like having to shoot your own well-loved dog. I'm grateful I never had to do it.

As for "slower" (let's hope someone doesn't seize on that term to drag us off topic) I can only say that we see lots of examples of failure in childrearing all around us. Would spanking have helped? We could comment that parents of such failures would likely not have been prone or capable of using spanking in a positive manner and it would have degenerated into abuse. Then again, when you see obvious failure with a juvenile offender you can't help but wonder if spanking would have prevented it. By that time it's too late.

To further muddy the waters, I'm not sure that's a fair comment on many parents. Is it all a result of the parents' expertise with raising their child?

Are there "bad seeds" and nothing the parents had done mattered?

I do know that spanking has been in disfavour in our society for only a generation or two. Did this mean that everyone born during all the uncountable generations before turned out dysfunctional from having been spanked as a child?

A society may legally ban spanking but who suffers in cases where alternatives didn't work?

Even more chillling, my experiences and observations of the Children's Aid organizations have not always been positive. Can we blindly trust some of these workers to intelligently assess a situation?

As a rightwing reprobate:tongue: I've always believed that if the state has the right to tell you what to do then the state should take 100% of the blame if things go wrong.

 

[david henman]

Well, again I make a distinction according to maturity. At 2-3 years the problem is having the child UNDERSTAND you!

I do know that spanking has been in disfavour in our society for only a generation or two. Did this mean that everyone born during all the uncountable generations before turned out dysfunctional from having been spanked as a child?

A society may legally ban spanking but who suffers in cases where alternatives didn't work?

Even more chillling, my experiences and observations of the Children's Aid organizations have not always been positive. Can we blindly trust some of these workers to intelligently assess a situation?

As a rightwing reprobate:tongue: I've always believed that if the state has the right to tell you what to do then the state should take 100% of the blame if things go wrong.

...to address just some of your points:

1. it has been my experience that a 2-3 year-old is more than capable of understanding basic english (or whatever language).

2. does arguing that many children "survived" being spanked negate the possibility that there is a more effective and less risky alternative? as societies progress, we are less likely to resort to "physical force" as a problem solver (the US being a prominent exception).

3. the cases where alternatives to spanking "didn't work", to my mind, beg the question. i've yet to see a convincing argument that spanking is better and more effective than the alternatives, especially patience, consistency and communication. i fully understand that brute force is "effective" - administering pain and humiliation will ALWAYS get a child's attention. but what does it "teach" a child beyond "do this and you will get this"? isn't it preferrable, not to mention far more effective in the long term, to teach a child understanding and comprehension?


4. i am no fan of the children's aid society. i believe they are pretty incompetent.

5. i kind of agree, but i think this is an over-simplification. it would be great if we didn't need laws at all, for example. but we do, and we ALL have to follow the SAME laws, for obvious reasons. as you well know, i'm sure, it is always the few who spoil it for the many. i could give you a litany of examples, but i wouldn't be telling you anything you don't know already.

-dh

 

[lolligagger]

I visit this forum to exchange ideas related to guitars, but my buddy the guitar genius has the following bumper sticker on one of his guitar cases...so I guess this post qualifies:

"Abused Children Grow Into Childish, Abusive Adults"

 

[Ripper]

Dave you keep talking about humiliation or being humiliated. As someone who was spanked as a child (not often but it was used), I certainly never felt humiliated by it. I do remember though sometimes of feeling very sad afterwards, not because of the sore bottom but because of the look of pain I saw in my fathers eyes when I got spanked (this statement should really open a can of worms). Looking back on it I am sure that it hurt him more than it really hurt me.

I also know that I was such a stubborn hardhead that the normal punishments mostly didn't work (taking away priviledges, heart to heart conversations etc.) My parents were very good at sticking to their guns, carrying through on the punishment and being consistent, but sometimes it just took a couple of good smacks to get my attention and to help me understand that sometimes the results of ones actions can result in more that just a loss of priviledges etc.

On the other side too, I was more scared of Grandma (she was one of those cheek pinchers everytime she saw you...hehhee)

 

[Ripper]

I visit this forum to exchange ideas related to guitars, but my buddy the guitar genius has the following bumper sticker on one of his guitar cases...so I guess this post qualifies:

"Abused Children Grow Into Childish, Abusive Adults"

I don't believe that a couple of swats on the butt constitutes abuse. I've got friends that came from abusive homes (heads put through walls etc. etc.) and spanking when controlled certainly isn't abuse.

 

[Lester B. Flat]

I was never spanked as a child so I tend to favor the no spanking side of the debate. My parents were not typical, as my friends have pointed out, in that they never argued in front of me or any of my seven siblings. Not once! In fact my mother told me later that she tried sometimes to argue with my father but he would just wouldn't allow himself to be drawn into it. Just the mere sense of their displeasure (a slightly raised voice) with my behavior would stab me through the heart. They were living examples of proper behavior and we all just did what we were told most of the time. Home was a safe and happy place.

The fact that it was a large family also came into play since the older kids learned first to help set an example for the younger ones. The peer pressure was towards positive behavior.

My father was a photographer and he had a special patience with children. He said that a lot of people would spank their kids for merely being kids. To some adults, bad behavior is anything that isn't adult behavior. He let us be kids unless we were seriously out of line, then we'd get the look and the voice and that would get our attention. Not one of my brothers or myself ever got into fights with other people.

On the other hand, a very close friend of mine whom I have known since highschool had a childhood from hell with psychological, physical and sexual abuse from his mother and older brother. He's very intelligent, has a stable relationship and a strong sense of justice and morality and is vehemently non-violent. Even as I watched him struggle with these problems growing up, I recognized the person inside was a good person.

Whether you are spanked or not does not decide how you are going to turn out and spanking lies in between the two scenarios I've related here, but, if for example you tried merely pushing or slapping an adult you could be facing assault charges. The only legal way to strike an adult is for self defence. Why is it illegal to pick on someone your own size but not a child?