Spanking...

david henman said:

...perhaps, but it is still your conclusion, not mine.

we can go around and around on this all day, but i am still curious to know why people think that striking a child is a good idea, much less a better idea than seeking a clear understanding between parent and child through verbal communication.

-dh

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David, I never once spanked my own daughters but to be honest I've never been sure if that was a mistake, specifically when they were small.

The reason I say this is because when a child is small its brain is not developed enough to properly understand an oral argument. Yet it is vital that the child immediately respond properly to a parent's voice in the advent of danger!

Let me give a "ferinstance" here. Suppose you are trying to get your kids into the car (like trying to herd cats!) and your 4 year old walks onto the street in front of an oncoming car. The first thing you want to happen is for your child to immediately stop when you call to him! Better yet, have him immediately come back! At the very least, he should respond appropriately to give you a chance to retrieve him from the danger.

At that age, is there any point in having a nice "talk" in such situations?

When a child is just developing using a swat or two (NOT indiscriminate walloping!) will immediately make a point that the child will remember. Not as a conscious choice but as a reflex. Until the child has achieved enough years I would think that he CAN"T make such conscious choices!

I differed to my wife's beliefs when the girls were so small but frankly I was often terrified to take them out on the street! My girls DID act as if a loud call was merely a preliminary to a "discussion" and I kept an iron grip on them to make sure they didn't stray into danger. By the time they reached 6 or so it was no longer a problem. They were advanced enough to understand when I explained a danger.

Commanding instant obedience in such situations is the OBLIGATION of a responsible parent! I was lucky that we were never in a scary situation but if heaven forbid one of my children had been hurt or worse you can be certain that I would have not been proud to simply claim that "At least I never spanked them!"

I also find it curious that many advocates against spanking talk as if spanking were synonymous with abuse! I just can't accept that reasoning. Abuse is merely a cruel and violent act. A spanking is a conscious choice as a means to correct a child's behaviour. If one can't see the difference then I don't believe that one could think deeply enough to judge another parent.

What's more, I've been blessed with great kids! I know other parents not so fortunate. Kids are born with differing amounts of talent and brain power. So are parents, for that matter! There are some very obvious failures committing repeated break-ins in my neighbourhood. Would judicious spanking have been applicable in such situations?

I dunno, but what the parents DID do has resulted in obvious failure...

david henman said:

the situation you describe is similar to owning a pet, especially a dog. the number one priority when training a dog is to get it to respond to its name, and to come immediately when called, so that you can prevent it from getting into trouble.

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Can't say which I prefer - litterbox or diapers!

david henman said:

with a child, you had better establish a level of intimate communication. in situations like the one you describe, if your child is in the habit of ignoring you, you are asking for trouble, big time.

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Well, again I make a distinction according to maturity. At 2-3 years the problem is having the child UNDERSTAND you!

david henman said:

again, i cannot help but detect a sense of "failure to communicate" when one has to resort to striking a child in order to get their attention.

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Again, yell loud enough and any child will look around to see where it's coming from. My worry is will the child react fast enough in a danger situation.

david henman said:

when you say that "Kids are born with differing amounts of talent and brain power", are you suggesting that "slower" children may require some form of "physical discipline" as a way of compensating?
-dh

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I'm not sure, David. As is sometimes painfully obvious, I'm a "techie" guy. I think in terms of what works. I have little patience for things that don't appear to actually work, even if it's politically correct to say they do. I was perfectly capable of spanking one of my kids if I thought it was necessary and of positive benefit to them. Mind you, it would have been an "Ol' Yeller" moment. Like having to shoot your own well-loved dog. I'm grateful I never had to do it.

As for "slower" (let's hope someone doesn't seize on that term to drag us off topic) I can only say that we see lots of examples of failure in childrearing all around us. Would spanking have helped? We could comment that parents of such failures would likely not have been prone or capable of using spanking in a positive manner and it would have degenerated into abuse. Then again, when you see obvious failure with a juvenile offender you can't help but wonder if spanking would have prevented it. By that time it's too late.

To further muddy the waters, I'm not sure that's a fair comment on many parents. Is it all a result of the parents' expertise with raising their child?

Are there "bad seeds" and nothing the parents had done mattered?

I do know that spanking has been in disfavour in our society for only a generation or two. Did this mean that everyone born during all the uncountable generations before turned out dysfunctional from having been spanked as a child?

A society may legally ban spanking but who suffers in cases where alternatives didn't work?

Even more chillling, my experiences and observations of the Children's Aid organizations have not always been positive. Can we blindly trust some of these workers to intelligently assess a situation?

As a rightwing reprobate:tongue: I've always believed that if the state has the right to tell you what to do then the state should take 100% of the blame if things go wrong.