[Milkman]

In general the Floyd Rose and derivitive systems are the best designs for tuning stability, regardless of style of play.


Tonally I think a skilled player can get pretty much anything he or she wants out of a FR.


I personally think the FR is one of the most significant developments in the evolution of the electric guitar.


It's a better mousetrap, plain and simple.

 

[Milkman]

I have heard the claim about a "tweaked" Fender style trem having similar tuning stability to a Floyd Rose.


Having tried a number of these tweaked Strats, I have yet to see this claim verified. Generally with normal playing (not even USING the trem) a standard trem will be out by the end of the set. When I check my locking guitars after a set they're almost "dead nuts" in tune.

Regardless of how much tweaking, how many potions and lotions you apply to the nut and so on, I just don't buy it.


Oh and that old chestnut about Floyds being ok for metal but nothing else is just nonsense.

 

[Milkman]

" I also realize that some ppl hate strats with a passion because of the stability issue and a may as well be trying to convince them that shyte don't stink....no really, here smell it!!! "


Actually I love Strats. I always keep one in my active guitars.


The trems suck though. All of the tweaks you describe above are pretty much common knowledge and yes, if you do these things you will difinitely improve the stability of a standard Strat trem.

I still maintain that it will not approach the bullet proof tuning stability of a properly installed and set up FR.

Plus, people are always complaining about the "hassle" of a FR. Well, it's nowhere near the hassle of all the tricks and manipulations you go through with your strat trem.

I'll go one step further. Even a hard tail won't stay in tune like a FR will.


People seem to have a real predjudice and closed mind about FR bridges.


I rarely use mine for dive bombs. For the most part it's for vibrato on chords or harmonic intervals. Even if I don't take the bar out of the case, it stays in tune better than ANY guitar without a double locking system.

 

[Milkman]

Dude first off congrats for make what I consider the best decision any man can make. Not only are you buying what I consider to be the best guitar (well if it was a seven it would be the best so second best :tongue: ) but you are also going to be part of a family that takes care of their customers. You are set for life. I've bought many used EBMM guitars and any parts I needed, I simply called customer service and, bang there it was in the mail free. Make sure you join the forums over there as well

http://www.ernieball.com/forums/

as they will be friendly and very helpful should you need it.

Now onto the guitar. Forget everything you know about the Floyd, the Petrucci is way better. I have an EBMM JP7 and a Wayne Custome 7 string, hand made by Wayne Charvel, while I love both guitars, comparing the trems is like comparing night and day. I will never buy another Floyd equipped guitar again. Changing strings, intonating and tuning on a FLoyd is a pain in the butt, however on the Petrucci, it's like making love on a beech, with the waves brushing up against you...HEAVEN. Changeing strings with the locking tuners takes about a couple of minutes, and once those strings are stretched, and the tuners locked, that guitar will hold its tune, even during massive whammy bar acrobatics. Now let's say you want to intonate this baby, simply turn the set screw, there's no special tools required and no need to loosen the string, like on the Floyd. Again should you need to set the guitar up, well the Petrucci trem can be set to follow the exact radius of the fretboard,do to its individual saddle heoght adjustments, unlike MOST Floyds which have to lay flat. Finally, should the neck require some fine tuning, the EBMMs come with a unique feature that no other guitar has, the truss wheel adjustment at the base of the neck, which is easy to turn and requires no special tool, no plate removal nor neck removal.

Hey ask yourself, what other company has the owner posting on the forums asking members for input, plus showing prototypes to the members...I can go on and on.

Here is a video of demonstrating its tuning stability:

http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/NorrinRadd1/?action=view&current=demo.flv

Look how compact it is:

C'mon man. This is a nice system but I've picked one up and played it. To say this bridge holds a tune like a FR is just plain silly.

Also it's more limited in terms of raising the pitch.


FR is still supreme in my opinion. Even the Ibanez Edge systems pale by comparison.

As for all the whining about how hard it is to change strings and intonate a FR, what hogwash.

How about fifteen minutes for a complete string change and a half an hour for an intonation (Ooooo, once a year I have to spend an extra few minutes to tweak my intonation)?

Anything with a conventional nut is technically inferior to a FR.


If you don't like FRs (it's trendy to bash them I suppose) OK, but making claims that EB, MM, PRS or Wilkenson has created a better system is laughable to me.

 

[Milkman]

I agree with Iluvmyjp7. Ernie Ball music man is simply put one of the best guitars money can buyand the customer support is absolutly second to none. I own a Silhouete Special M.I.A.C 26 of 30. Read the guest book submission Brian Ball wrote...

http://pub30.bravenet.com/guestbook/2527020227/4

I've talked with Brian since then. He is very approachable... the Music man team is incredible.

As for the amount of time it takes to do work on a FR yeah it's longer but if like Milkman you do it once a year then who cares but if you are like myself and intonate on every string change then FR's are a pain in the ass. Why do I intonate on every string change... becasue no two sets of strings are alike. Even if you use good quality strings the intonation can be out a little and I hear it. It drives me crazy when I'm out of intonation because it takes a bench top fix ( with the FR ) unliike being out of tune which can be fixed on the fly.

Good luck with the new Petrucci!

Khing

How many people intonate during EVERY string change?


Sorry man, but that's NUTS!!


There will be extreme cases where a set of strings is noticeably different than others of the same brand and gauge, but I have many things to consider in terms of the overall sound of both the guitars and the band. If you applied this level of attention to every important element of your music, you'd never emerge from the basement.


For the record, I do check my intonation every time I change strings. It takes a couple of seconds per string and if it needed adjustment I would simply do it. Also in case I haven't mentioned this, I change my strings every two weeks or two gigs, whichever comes first.



I'm not knocking the MM system, just pointing out that many of the complaints about FRs are insignificant and well, irelevent.

 

[Milkman]

Again it all boils down to preference, however you have to admit that, in terms of design, there is an obvious difference...come on admit it. There's even a spot to rest your palm, whereas the Floyds had to come up with additional hardware to compete. The EBMM JP trem takes all of the best functions and combined them into one unique package. Can you adjust the individual saddle heights on your Floyd? I have my EBMM JP7 adjusted to 1/32' and that's on the Low B. With my Floyd equipped guitar, I cannot do that unless I go out and purchase shims, and then that would require a lot of work. We are not bashing, we are just stating the obvious. The Floyd was king of the 80's but what have they done to improve since then? The EBMM JP trem is a far superior design, and there's nothing no one can say to convince me otherwise. I have played most of the different trems out there, and there is no comparison, when one includes ALL of the benefits that come with EBMM JP trem.

Again, smoke and mirrors. I palm mute with ease on my FRs. It's a simple matter of learning to lighten up on the pressure and I don't give it a second thought.

Individual string height adjustment? Never found this to be a problem with FRs.

Go back and listen to the video posted earlier demonstrating the MM.

Hear that clunking?


If that doesn't bother you ok, but my FRs don't make that kind of noise no matter WHAT I do to them.

Perhaps you're more of a technically oriented player than I am but again, having tried both systems, the FR sounds, plays and feels significanty better to me.

When you say something like "there's nothing you can say to convince me otherwise" there's not much point in discussing it further.

 

[Milkman]

You got that right, only because I have played, owned, operated, and worked on the different choices. Why the hell would I want to go back to a Floyd?

Because it's better, and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise?


Kidding of course.

The day I play a better system than an original FR, I'll buy it.

 

[Milkman]

As long as we are happy, that's all that counts!

Exactly right.

I wouldn't state that the FR is the best, only that it is the best so far for my tastes.

 

[Milkman]

faracaster... well said... I agree FR systems stay in tune great.
We have not mentioned Kahler yet either. I have one guitar with a kahler. A custom made Larivee V. Which I hade made back in the early 90's when I lived in Vancouver.
Kahlers stay in tune really well but not as well as a FR. Are as smooth a feel as any trem I've used. They do not have the travel of a FR system. The nice thing is they require no holes in your guitar's body. The tension can be light or heavy but to adjust you have to remove the unit from your guitar, replace it and try it out, and repeat as needed till the desired tension is reached... thats a pain.

Khing

I was a Kahler user before switching to FRs.

I used Kahler pros on most of my guitars. In my opinion they are the SMOOTHEST feeling trem out there. I always morticed a ledge into the body around 3/16ths deep in the footprint of the bridge. This created more of an angle and seemd to help with sustain due to the strings being tighter in the saddles.

My only complaint was sustain and as for changing strings I always soldered the balls on the plain strings so it was slowere for me tha a FR string change.


The bar itself was wonderful. I loved the nylon bushing that they use to set the tension.

 

[Milkman]

Milkman said...



I'm not sure if I'm underdstanding your post Milkman... what"s nuts?

I'm talking about intonating on every string change...



I said intonation can be out a little. Thats why I intonate at every string change... maybe it's out and requires adjustment... maybe it's not and requires no adjustment. Surely you will agree that if it is out and out enough to make things sound bad then a FR system is not a simple system to intonate while standing up, guitar strapped on, in between songs or even sets. With a Fender sync trem like on a Strat or a Stop tail piece like on a Les paul for example a guy can do a quick intonation adjustment on the fly in between songs with a tuner and a small phillips screwdriver.

Then there is this...

And this...

And this...

So as you can see I'm not sure what's nuts. Are we slinging mud here Bro or what? If so thats a shame... no need for that. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions but honestly I find some of your comments contradictory... so please clarify.

FR systems are great I've been using them for quite some time but they do have their common shrotfalls and like any system they are not perfect. Ask any Tekky who does it for a living... intonating a FR is a pain in the ASS... plain and simple. A restring takes more time than most other systems. As for the palm muting thing... I have never had a problem with the FR system, for tuning, pitch going sharp or anything. I really like the FR system... some guys complain that they reck tone... I tend to like the tones I get from my guitars that have FR systems... but yeah there is a noticable difference in tone. I also find that the overseas licenced FR systems do not sound as good as the origional spec models by Schaller. The cheaper overseas FR systems tend to have a thinner base plate that is not made of the same grade of alloy as say the origional FR or the Schaller which has a thicker Bell Brass base plate.

Khing

I think my comments should have been pretty clear.

Intonating a guitar is something I do when I change string gauges or brands. I check mine quickly when I restring, but with the FR properly tightened up, I have never had to adjust it.

Intonating while standing up , between songs, between sets?

If that doesn't seem nuts to you......:confused-smiley-010

I'm not slinging mud man, but really, who the F$%k intonates DURING a gig!?!


This is bordering on the Eric Johnson level of extremity.


There comes a point where I have to stop being a tech and start being an entertainer/player.

Sorry if this posture offends you. I'm just being honest. I don't see anything contradictory in my comments.

 

[Milkman]

Intonating during a gig may not be an everyday thing... usually things are done prior and ready to go... what I'm saying is it happens and man it's nasty with the FR system and easy with others... fact.

As for your comments being contradictory... you left these out in your last post... it's self explanitory or as I asked... clarify.






So what I'm getting at here is I understand freedom of speech but actions will cause reactions and if someone tells me what I do is nuts then yeah I take offence to that. I really do not care how someone else does it ( not meant in a negative way ) and I'm surely mature enough to not make negative comments on a public forum when it concerns someones personal beliefs on do's and don'ts... thats just poor behaviour IMHO. If you intonate once a year than thats acceptable and yeah who cares about the little extra time it takes with a FR but if you intonate more often or say do it for a living... as I said...



Bottom line is this FR systems are great and have certain drawbacks and whether you love or hate them is a matter of personal opinion... other systems are great aswell and the same applies... I want you to know however that slammin people for their personal opinions is simply bad etiquette and I do not accept that and will have my say.

Its obvious to me and others as I see from reading the posts in this thread that I'm not alone in my thoughts here. I could not care less how many years you have played or whether you gig, or play in your basemant, how old you are, etc... I do not judge people on that nor do I judge them on what they deem necassary in getting their artistic expressions across.

As far as I'm concerned you owe me an apology and you should use better etiquette in the future... however if you decide not to thats your choice and the consequences of that choice are yours and yours alone.

Khing

No, you're being way too sensitive. Grow a skin and accept that others will disagree with you periodically.

I owe you NO apology. If I resort to name calling or personal attacks, THEN I would be out of line.


If you are so distracted by the intonation on a guitar that you would consider intonating between songs, you may want to seek counciling, LOL.

As I said, you're approaching the Eric Johnson school of cork sniffing.

Artistic expression? Please.


Intonating a guitar in the middle of a show?


Raise your hands anybody who does this?????

 

[Milkman]

I don't personally intonate at a gig, but I can see if someones ear was refined enough that it could drive a guy nuts and make them do a quick intonation tweek during a gig. I'm not saying your ear isn't refined Milkman, just that others might be bothered enough that a quick intonation change keeps the sanity.


Now lets just leave it at that guys! It's starting to get personal, and I don't want to close another thread.


Jeff

LOL.

Ok man.

I have to go put an elastic band around my Fuzz face.

 

[Milkman]

I have no problems with the FR except:
1. Bridge flutter making adjacent string bends require multiple bends, all of differing degrees just to keep it in tune.



2. Biggest PITA to setup and maintain.



3. Break a string and put it down to pickup your spare.



4. Love taking a guitar string, clamping it in metal blocks at one end and then parking a Buick on two posts in the middle of the guitar. This is Tone? Not to me.



5. Looks like shite.



My Musicmans and PRSi stay in tune equally as well (so do my trad. Fender trems; setup is everything) and suffer from none of the above. One of these days I will meet Floyd in person and there will be an assault charge involved. Yeah, I fix guitars for a living...-Eric.

1. Big problem for country pickers I guess. The FR was not designed for steel guitar licks. (I can do double stops with bends. Just takes a little practice).

2. and you fix guitars for a living?

3. One broken string in 10 years. That's why I have back ups.

4. I use my ears to assess tone, not a discription of how you string the bridge. Sounds great to me.

5. Ok, can't argue with that. Lots of people would say the same about a Les Paul. (but who gives a shite how it looks?)


Equally well? I've heard this claim many times and strangely enough, I can throw these guitars out of tune pretty easily.



Again, it's all about what you like.

 

[Milkman]

Wishful thinking?


Closing threads because someone gets their nose out of joint is not a good idea unless you want a place where everybody has the same opinions and nobody ever dares to say "the Emperor's naked".


That's not the way I see this site and it would be a shame.


When I hear or read something that I believe to be false, I call BS.

If that ruffles feathers, so be it.


Guitarists are among the worst (or best) followers there are. One guitar god makes a statement in a guitar mag and it becomes fact.

I use my own judgement. That doesn't mean I'm always right, but my opinions are based on my experience and not on what everybody else says is so.

:food-smiley-004:

 

[Milkman]

Right on.



Also, a question of balance














which incidentally is the fundamental concept upon which the mighty Floyd Rose double locking vibrato is based.



(on topic):rockon2:

 

[Milkman]

The ironic thing is that setting up a Floyd is really simpler in some ways than a traditional Fender trem. You have to really know how to set up one of those the be able to use it at all, and the amount of time and effort you spend with them DOES yield results.



With a Floyd I set it up in under an hour including installing the strings, setting action and intonating it. I also set up guitars for a living for about 18 months (between bands). When tightened correctly I've had one saddle come loose in some twenty years of using them. I've gone through some of the locking screws on the bridge and a few on the nuts, but really they never seem to need a lot of tweaking.

The traditional ones need more TLC, but obviously many players still prefer them for tonal reasons.

 

[Milkman]

Actually what you did was tell someone they are nuts for intinating at a gig. I had absolutely nothing to do with something that is false. It wasn't direct name calling but indirectly that's what you were doing.

You kept at it, poking little jabs here and there and you really didn't have to. If KHINGPYNN hadn't walked away you'd still probably be at it.

Food for thought!

Intonating at a gig IS nuts. Again I call them as I see them. I have never seen ANYone intonate a guitar between sets. Perhaps if a saddle fell off or something extreme like that, but let's get real here.

Food for thought? Here's some food for thought.

BS is BS

 

[Milkman]

Not a Floyd anyway, but an EBMM JP, NO PROBLEM!:banana:

Well I guess if that bridge NEEDs to be intonated in the middle of a gig......



The FR sure doesn't.

 

[Milkman]

Thinking it's nuts is fine, and posting that is fine as well, but continually posting it and being an arrogant ass about it isn't called for.

We want this place to be a place that everyone can enjoy and it's simple as being nice. Can you possibly do that? If not here's a link for you:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/index.php

And is this proper comduct for a moderator?


Directing faithful contributors to go to Harmony central after referring to them as an "arrogant ass"?


I don't really care if you like me or not.

YOU sir are stepping out of line.



Perhaps the administrators should be making such decisions.

 

[Milkman]

Not necessarily, as strings stretch out and get gunked up the intonation will move around. It's slight and it might be enough to bother some.

Experts will tell you that strings don't actually stretch. They settle in around the tuners.

If your strings are "gunked up" to the extent that you need to re-intonate, wouldn't it make more sense to change the strings?