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I think I asked this Q? before on other forums, but the answers were never that clear. Let's say you have two different speakers, and Eminence Legend and a Celestion Greenback. How different would each sound in a open back and then a closed back (front vented maybe?), How different would they sound if driven by an EL34 Marshall and then a BF 6L6 Fender.

Thanks in advance,... robert
 

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Robert1950 said:
I think I asked this Q? before on other forums, but the answers were never that clear. Let's say you have two different speakers, and Eminence Legend and a Celestion Greenback. How different would each sound in a open back and then a closed back (front vented maybe?), How different would they sound if driven by an EL34 Marshall and then a BF 6L6 Fender.

Thanks in advance,... robert

Closed back will tend to have a tighter bass response, but more importantly and speaking as a sound man, a closed back cab or combo will be MUCH less of a headache for anyone trying to mix out front.


Whenever presented with an open back amp to mic up I request that the guitarist allow me to cover the back with a vinyl backed drop sheet.
 

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And how often are you told to go forth and multiply? I know anyone wanting to cover up my amp, can't be much of A sound guy. What do you hope to accomplish doing that/ Wouldn't it make more sense to just move the amp? Usually , on most stages, there would be no mics behind the amp anyways.

CT.
 

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CocoTone said:
And how often are you told to go forth and multiply? I know anyone wanting to cover up my amp, can't be much of A sound guy. What do you hope to accomplish doing that/ Wouldn't it make more sense to just move the amp? Usually , on most stages, there would be no mics behind the amp anyways.

CT.

I think He would be speaking of the sound that BLEEDS from the back of the amp, "ALL AROUND" the stage... which makes the guitar a major issue as far as stage volume and mixing goes. It's a nightmare for a soundguy, UNLESS the guitar player has the amp right in his ear with VERY little volume. Unfortunately the fact is most combo players crank the snot out of their amps and leave them on the floor so that their pants are blowing in the wind!
I hate combos...
I'll take any closed back sealed cab as a player and a soundguy.

Keith
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Milkman said:
Closed back will tend to have a tighter bass response.
Thank you. Other than tighter bass response, what else. What about mids and highs. What would the difference be for Telecaster twang and Humbucker woman tone? :confused-smiley-010
 

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SQUAREHEAD said:
I think He would be speaking of the sound that BLEEDS from the back of the amp, "ALL AROUND" the stage... which makes the guitar a major issue as far as stage volume and mixing goes. It's a nightmare for a soundguy, UNLESS the guitar player has the amp right in his ear with VERY little volume. Unfortunately the fact is most combo players crank the snot out of their amps and leave them on the floor so that their pants are blowing in the wind!
I hate combos...
I'll take any closed back sealed cab as a player and a soundguy.

Keith
Well, I do like my closed back Guitarmate. Nice tight bottom end. Amp sounds absolutely huge mic`d. I guess a `57 can`t tell the diff between one Greenback mic`d in a 4X12 than one mic`d in my Traynor.


CT.
 

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Robert1950 said:
Thank you. Other than tighter bass response, what else. What about mids and highs. What would the difference be for Telecaster twang and Humbucker woman tone? :confused-smiley-010
I also have a 4X10 Super Reverb, and I've been on stages with a JCM800 into a 4X12, and he wasn't holding back much. The Supere was just as loud, and had just as tight a bottom end as the 4X12.

CT.
 

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CocoTone said:
And how often are you told to go forth and multiply? I know anyone wanting to cover up my amp, can't be much of A sound guy. What do you hope to accomplish doing that/ Wouldn't it make more sense to just move the amp? Usually , on most stages, there would be no mics behind the amp anyways.

CT.

The guys who don't want to cooperate generally sound like ass anyway.

Open back amps bleed all over the stage. Don't believe me? Ask another sound man.

The biggest problem you face in trying to mix live bands is TOO MUCH GUITAR coming off the stage. Having an amp shooting sound out the back which then bounces all over the place is a drag.


Most bands don't have a shitty attitude when you try to work with them to make them sound better, particularly when they hear the bands that go on before them. Before you imply that I don't know what I'm doing you might want to check out a live show where I'm behind the console.

Sheesh

It's a matter of cooperation.
 

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SQUAREHEAD said:
I think He would be speaking of the sound that BLEEDS from the back of the amp, "ALL AROUND" the stage... which makes the guitar a major issue as far as stage volume and mixing goes. It's a nightmare for a soundguy, UNLESS the guitar player has the amp right in his ear with VERY little volume. Unfortunately the fact is most combo players crank the snot out of their amps and leave them on the floor so that their pants are blowing in the wind!
I hate combos...
I'll take any closed back sealed cab as a player and a soundguy.

Keith
Ah, someone else who doesn't know crap eh Coco?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
CocoTone said:
I also have a 4X10 Super Reverb, and I've been on stages with a JCM800 into a 4X12, and he wasn't holding back much. The Supere was just as loud, and had just as tight a bottom end as the 4X12.

CT.
Could it be the 4x10s vs the 4X12s ?
 

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Milkman said:
Closed back will tend to have a tighter bass response, but more importantly and speaking as a sound man, a closed back cab or combo will be MUCH less of a headache for anyone trying to mix out front.

Whenever presented with an open back amp to mic up I request that the guitarist allow me to cover the back with a vinyl backed drop sheet.
Woe betide the soundguy who wants to cover up the Silver Dogs in the back of my '65 AC 30....

May I suggest that you do what we do when in the studio and on stage?
Stick a Sennheiser 421 in the back of the open back combo amp and blend it in with the guitar sound - you'll be amazed at how it punches up the FOH guitar mix. There's a lot of good stuff coming out of the back of a good open back combo.

Most of the guitar players I know will usually ASK the soundperson if the stage volume is OK. Those who don't usually don't have much stage experience.
 

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FrogRick12 said:
Woe betide the soundguy who wants to cover up the Silver Dogs in the back of my '65 AC 30....

May I suggest that you do what we do when in the studio and on stage?
Stick a Sennheiser 421 in the back of the open back combo amp and blend it in with the guitar sound - you'll be amazed at how it punches up the FOH guitar mix. There's a lot of good stuff coming out of the back of a good open back combo.

Most of the guitar players I know will usually ASK the soundperson if the stage volume is OK. Those who don't usually don't have much stage experience.
It's not simply a matter of levels.


With an open back cab there's just so much sound spilling out from the back. It bleeds into other mics. In the studio, sure, the amp is isolated and putting mics behind, six feet away, off axis et cetera are all good.


For live sound, what I want is as small an amp as the guitarist will tolerate and as directional a cab as possible. It results in a MUCH better sound out front.


Why would anyone object to covering the back of the amp?


It's not going to affect what he hears. It just makes the house mix ten times better.
 

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Covering the back of an open back combo changes the volume (quantity) of the cabinet - it does affect what the player hears.

Let's keep in mind that live sound is not a science experiment to be conducted under controlled conditions -

As Keef might say It's rock 'n f***in' roll innit?

Or as John Lennon once said to Geoff Emerick when Geoff asked him to turn down during the recording of "Revolution" with an open-backed Fender Deluxe:

"It's your job to control the sound. I suggest you do your bloody job!":D
 

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1 word: HEAT!!!!

Just my $0.02 but take 100 "full time" soundmen and 2 or 3 may have a slight clue how to do sound....

If a sound man starts with gobos, and raising the drummer cymbals and......you know the gig is going to be hell and the audience, no matter how drunk or stoned catches the - vibe immediately.

real time analyze that! :D

Andy
 

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GuitarsCanada said:
Clearly a hot and highly debatable subject. Are there any more sound men lurking in here with some feedback on this?
I`ve yet to meet a sound guy outside of a major venue that knew amything about sound. They are indeed a rare breed. You can't expect to srew with someone's rig, and expect them to agree. My sound is MY sound. If you can't capture it properly, then find another gig.
Having said that, there are so many guys out there with monster rigs, or more amp than the room needs, I can see how that would be a problem. How can you play a bar with 100 watts, and a 4X12???:sport-smiley-002:

CT.
 

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CocoTone said:
I`ve yet to meet a sound guy outside of a major venue that knew amything about sound. They are indeed a rare breed. You can't expect to srew with someone's rig, and expect them to agree. My sound is MY sound. If you can't capture it properly, then find another gig.
Having said that, there are so many guys out there with monster rigs, or more amp than the room needs, I can see how that would be a problem. How can you play a bar with 100 watts, and a 4X12???:sport-smiley-002:

CT.

And I've met all kinds of guys who didn't understand that co-operating with the tech is the only way to really make the band sound good. Funny, it's usually young kids just starting out who have the rock star attitude. As I've said, the bands going on second and third et cetera, ALWAYS cooperate with me after they hear the FOH sound.

You say "I`ve yet to meet a sound guy outside of a major venue that knew amything about sound."


One might easily say the same about club musicians (I've yet to meet one outside of a major signed act that knew how to get a good sound) but you'd be just as full of crap.


First, I've spent more than thirty years playing gigs including more than eleven years on tour non stop. I've done sound for countless gigs ranging from clubs to festivals.

I can count on one hand the guys who had the arrogant attitude that nobody's going to cover the back of my amp or tell me where to put it.


Those coincidentally were the bands that sounded like crap.



Bands generally hire me (and rehire me) because they've heard my sound or my recordings.


You can dispense with the insinuations that I'm some clown who doesn't know what he's talking about.

You make it seem like I walk in and start barking orders or something.


My approach is decidedly different than that. I start off by saying something like, I'm going to make you guys sound great. Do you have any particular needs in terms of monitor mixes, or preferences in vocal mics? How many of this and that do you need. Would you be willing to sidewash your amps? May I put a drop sheet over the back of this amp?


As I've said. Almost ALL reasonable musicians understand what I'm trying to do and most find it refreshing that the tech actually gives a shit.
 

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Sorry to be so verbose but....


One of the great things about being both a sound man AND a musician is that you gain a much more comprehensive understanding of the final product, that being the sound reaching the crowd. You tend to see things from both sides, but more importantly from the audience's.


That understanding has cause me to reassess my habits and methods in BOTH capacities.


When I mix, I really work hard for the bands. I don't just set the strips and walk away or stand there and check out the eye candy. I'm constantly PFL'ing the strips and tweaking, constantly bringing levels up and down as needs be.

I see a mix as a dynamic process, not a static one.
 
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