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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I caught one of the guys on a NAMM 2018 mention this in passing, maybe Mick from That Pedal show on a video uploaded here. So I wrote it down just to check out. Not even sure if there is pricing available or if they've been released, so here's a link to the Celestion site:

F12-X200

Are there any Modeller/IR guys here that might know a bit about this stuff? I watch a number of Pete Thorn vids on his channel so I'm at least acquainted with the terminology and sort of how it works. But not really to my satisfaction. I'm assuming there are a number of speaker companies that have this type of deal in there PA's and FRFR speaker "thingy's". Bust Celestion says:

Finally, a dedicated guitar speaker for amp modellers and IRs. The F12-X200 is a truly full range driver that delivers a frequency response from 60Hz all the way up to 20kHz, the higher frequency part of the signal is reproduced using a Celestion compression driver which has been integrated using a high quality crossover circuit. This enables the F12-X200 to reproduce the full spectrum of audible frequencies, for the most accurate output possible, whatever your environment and set-up.
So I assume it's a speaker you can plug into your existing Cabinet and/or Amp. ?

Speak up if you know please...I like to try to keep up with the latest innovations. I'd also like to possibly get "some" use out of my 2 Modellers (L6 POD 2 and HD300) that I'm not crazy about but not totally unhappy with. Maybe useful in a recording situation for certain things. Just looking to the future here.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
And if there is already a thread, sorry about that. But it's too late so too friggin bad. hah
 

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You should be able to replace an existing speaker and get better results from your modeller. The FRFR craze is a little silly. Basically you should be able to use any full frequency cabinet (PA or monitor) and get a great sound but really what you want to bypass is the preamp. If you have an effects loop in your amp, try your modeller in the return. It’ll sound pretty good, especially if you’re not trying too get an acoustic sound. For acoustics you need higher frequency tweeter.
If you’re using the Celestion with a regular guitar amp and running your modeller through that it’ll still sound crappy because of the colour of the preamp.
Hope I understood your question.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
You should be able to replace an existing speaker and get better results from your modeller. The FRFR craze is a little silly. Basically you should be able to use any full frequency cabinet (PA or monitor) and get a great sound but really what you want to bypass is the preamp. If you have an effects loop in your amp, try your modeller in the return. It’ll sound pretty good, especially if you’re not trying too get an acoustic sound. For acoustics you need higher frequency tweeter.
If you’re using the Celestion with a regular guitar amp and running your modeller through that it’ll still sound crappy because of the colour of the preamp.
Hope I understood your question.
That's a great answer to a number of questions I've had re: Modellers and FRFR. One thing that you haven't mentioned is the colour of an FRFR, which I'm assuming is a more flat but open frequency response, compared to lets say my 2x12 cabinet loaded with the V30's with the Blackstar head that does have an effects loop. Would a speaker like the F-12 X200 mitigate the enhanced mid range output of the V30's? I do have another amp or 2 with loops as well, one a tube ^L^ (VK112) and a Peavey Bandit 65 that is SS. I'm asking because I'm thinking about unloading some equipment, but I don't want to sell something that can be used in a studio type situation.
 

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A guitar amp has a certain signature 'sound'. It is, by nature, not transparent or flat. A guitar speaker cab also has a certain 'sound' - again, not flat or transparent. When using a guitar amp through a cabinet, we are creating or producing our specific guitar sound with those devices, we are not reproducing an existing sound of any sort. You don't really want to hear a guitar played through a flat system (think straight into PA).

With modelers, that 'producing the sound of a guitar amp through guitar cab' is built in to the modeler. That sound requires a reproduction system that will as accurately as possible make the output of the modeler louder. If you were to plug that output into only a guitar cabinet instead of a full range reproduction speaker system, like an FRFR, it would be like playing through a guitar cabinet and then putting that sound through a second guitar cabinet. So it would change your sound even more, rather than accurately reproduce it louder. And probably for the worse, not better. But it wouldn't hurt anything to try.

I don't own a modeler, but I think many (if not all) of them now have two outputs. One output is the full 'amp into cab' sound that should go to the PA or an FRFR (or straight to a recording system) and another output that doesn't have the speaker emulation / IR's encoded so that output would be better into a guitar cab, since that isn't part of the modeler's sound on that output.

Saying that, I don't think it would sound good to use an FRFR and a guitar cab in parallel from the same output. Again, it won't hurt anything to try. But I think the intention was to use the correct type of speaker for the correct type of output.
 

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Here’s where the experimentation begins. To answer your question, the x12 will be more suited to modellers than v30’s. But maybe what you have will sound fine. Try your modeller in the loop of your amps. If it still doesn’t sound the way you like try disabling the modeller’s “speaker”.
 

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@High/Deaf beat me to it! Came in to basically say what's already been said. FRFR "for modelers" is just marketing. All (decent) PA speakers are designed to be as close to FRFR as the manufacturer's design budget will allow. That's why most modeling guys who go direct just use a powered PA speaker or stage monitor.

PRICE & RELEASE
The Celestion F12-X200 is supposed to MAP for $159 US (so, probably around $200-$220 CAD) and is set to be released later this year (which probably means summer time in the US; which probably means fall for Canadians).

CONSIDERATIONS
FWIW, if the goal is a more accurate reproduction of sound, a system with an active crossover would be far superior to a coaxial speaker with a passive crossover (like the F12-X200). While it could be argued that a coaxial design is superior to standard parallel designs because of the improvement in phase issues, coaxial designs with passive crossovers are still flawed due to time alignment issues. Active crossovers can generally correct that, along with providing a number of other beneficial functions. The majority of (decent) powered PA speakers these days have active crossovers.

The other consideration with FRFR designs is that the box shape, dimensions, and internal sound dampening have a significant impact on the sound that is reproduced. A cab designed for this type of application is designed from the ground up for a very specific set of drivers. The Thiele/Small Parameters of the speaker in question provides the necessary info to aid in that box design. While you can replace any guitar speaker with a coaxial speaker like this Celestion, you will get a different result every time depending on the cab it is being put into.

REALITY
How big are these issues/differences? Probably fairly minor. I would guess that most people can't even hear time alignment issues in coaxial designs (typically <5ms). Just like most people can't hear the phase issues of parallel speaker designs. Otherwise coaxial designs with passive crossovers and parallel designs wouldn't even exist. Likewise, if the goal is to get closer to FRFR, replacing your guitar's extension cab speaker with a coaxial speaker will provide enough improvement that most users will probably be satisfied, even if it is isn't perfectly ideal from a technical standpoint.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks for the replies all. Regarding the Active vs Passive crossovers @jbealsmusic , it sounds like in my own situation I'd be just as well off updating/upgrading my current powered studio monitors to better ones. So what type of guitarist would a speaker like this be more applicable to? Or better yet, aimed at? Doesn't sound like it will replace many PA's or Powered Studio monitors. It certainly doesn't sound like it will replace or upgrade anyone who already has a robust setup for this type of thing. I'm of course only speaking to my situation. I'd think that there are a number of people that this speaker would be a more suitable fit to their setup. Maybe the person who gigs with a Helix and requires a better stage sound who has an old amp that they'd prefer to use on stage instead of putting out for a Powered Monitor? I'm not in that situation, but I'd like to think that Celestion has done the market research to come up with something like this. Or is it more of jumping on this apparent FRFR/IR bandwagon craze?
 

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Thanks for the replies all. Regarding the Active vs Passive crossovers @jbealsmusic , it sounds like in my own situation I'd be just as well off updating/upgrading my current powered studio monitors to better ones.
If all you're doing is playing at home, this would be my suggestion. Or, a powered PA cab/wedge/monitor.

So what type of guitarist would a speaker like this be more applicable to? Or better yet, aimed at? Doesn't sound like it will replace many PA's or Powered Studio monitors. It certainly doesn't sound like it will replace or upgrade anyone who already has a robust setup for this type of thing.
Going by their product description, I would say it's target audience is customers who are perhaps aware of the benefits of going direct (FRFR), but who are not fully educated on the subject. There are tons of speakers in the PA and HI-FI world exactly like it. In fact, despite the way they are marketing this product, it is essentially a PA speaker.

I'd think that there are a number of people that this speaker would be a more suitable fit to their setup. Maybe the person who gigs with a Helix and requires a better stage sound who has an old amp that they'd prefer to use on stage instead of putting out for a Powered Monitor?
Perhaps, but consider that you can easily find decent powered PA speakers on the used market for the same price as this one replacement speaker.

I'm not in that situation, but I'd like to think that Celestion has done the market research to come up with something like this. Or is it more of jumping on this apparent FRFR/IR bandwagon craze?
I would say both. Remember, market research isn't there to determine the best product to meet customers' needs. It's there to determine the product that best suits the customers' desires. Customers are crying for FRFR speakers that they can drop into guitar cabs so they can run their modelers into the FX-return of their amps and get a flatter sound. This is Celestion's solution. It is certainly not ideal. I would argue there are better solutions. But, this is what customers want, so it will sell.

For the record, I'm not knocking the product. I'm sure it's great. Heck, we will probably sell dozens of them when they're available. I just feel that products marketed in this way only serve to confuse customers. It is a coaxial speaker with a built-in passive crossover. That is neither new, special, nor groundbreaking. Nor is it different enough in any real way to be considered "special" for guitar players vs it being a regular PA speaker. In fact, if their posted specs are accurate it would make a great PA speaker.
 
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This speaker hardly seems to be "FRFR" since it's cutoff is at 60hz (at which point it seems to be down -6db already and plunges sharply from there). In addition, plugging one or more of these into a guitar cab isn't going to do much, since most guitar cabs are tuned to work with traditional guitar speakers and have their ports/resonances/freq range designed for guitar! (duh)

As for the FRFR craze, like @jbealsmusic, I'd much rather plug into an active PA wedge. The Yorkville E10P is fantastic, but there are many more (cheaper and more expensive). All these FRFR cabs from Friedman, Mission, Matrix, etc. are all just cash-grabs. Any good PA wedge will do as well, if not better, than a FRFR cab. PA cabs are, by-definition FRFR to begin with. So are keyboard amps!
 

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This speaker hardly seems to be "FRFR" since it's cutoff is at 60hz (at which point it seems to be down -6db already and plunges sharply from there).
Actually, that's perfectly normal. The cutoff for the majority of PA speakers and studio monitors is 60-100Hz. That's why subs exist. You wouldn't want frequencies below 80Hz coming from your guitar amp anyways. All it will do is drive your sound man insane. That's why most sound people and studio engineers turn on the high pass filter to taste. For some, that's 80-120Hz. For others, it's as high as 165Hz.

In addition, plugging one or more of these into a guitar cab isn't going to do much, since most guitar cabs are tuned to work with traditional guitar speakers and have their ports/resonances/freq range designed for guitar! (duh)
I wish that much thought went into guitar cab designs. Most guitar cabs on the market are just boxes that fit the speaker(s) and/or amp. Definitely not ideal for conversion to an FRFR cab, but people will do it anyways. And because the result will likely be more flat than the existing guitar speaker, most people will be happy with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
So in other words.....


Thanks for clearing a lot of stuff up people. Saved me a shit load of time trying to glean through the BS and fanboydom on the web. Much appreciated. I'll continue looking for some decent Monitors or Wedges. You've steered me in the right direction.
 

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Actually, that's perfectly normal. The cutoff for the majority of PA speakers and studio monitors is 60-100Hz. That's why subs exist. You wouldn't want frequencies below 80Hz coming from your guitar amp anyways. All it will do is drive your sound man insane. That's why most sound people and studio engineers turn on the high pass filter to taste. For some, that's 80-120Hz. For others, it's as high as 165Hz.
Depends what you're doing with your rig. I route synth sounds through my Helix all the time and while I have aggressive cutoffs for the main guitar signal below 100Hz, the synth stuff runs full-range, so I definitely need my monitor to be able to reach down to at least 60hz.

Also, there's no way I'd consider a PA cab that can't get below 60Hz convincingly. Maybe a small studio monitor, sure (I have a pair of 3" Fostex monitors that can't get much below 90Hz), but for a full-range cab? My NX55p cab are spec'd at 45-18k at +/- 3db. Even if that's a little bit of generous fudging, they can definitely reproduce bass tones fairly well. Sure, I run subs as well (xover at around 105hz) but I also run them alone for small shows and expect them to handle kick, bass, synth, etc.
 
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