Maybe it's the air we are breathing

1110 Views 45 Replies 18 Participants Last post by vadsy, Jul 27, 2017

GuitarsCanada

Discussion Starter · Jul 22, 2017

I try to imagine my Father at that age rolling around on the grass in a fight... nope, just not possible. What is going on? 65 and 71 years old respectively

Cyclist bloodied after road rage beating

21 - 40 of 46 Posts

Scotty

· #21 · Jul 22, 2017

Distortion said:
Take a place like Texas with the death penalty and ability to carry a fire arm probably less violent crime than Ontario. Criminals don't mess with you if you could be packing heat legal.

I'd like to see those stats, and I for one dont ever want to see Ontario tun into the good ol boy province where we revert back to the old west. Is Texas not one of the states where the police can shoot fleeing suspects in the back?? I don't condone crime, but that is essentially allowing police officers to shoot for sport. We dont need guns and all the problems they bring with them up here. (I'm not talking about hunting rifles)

Distortion said:
That must be a sheet metal thing. Close as I came to battling at work was in that trade. I got out of it , too many idiots.

That can be in ANY trade. Tin whackers are a rather entitled bunch, though I'd say there's rougher trades. And I don't mean rough as in the work, though I do think there's a correlation. I doubt very much that lawyers and doctors threaten each other with violence but I have seen it many times in the construction field

Jim DaddyO

· #22 · Jul 22, 2017

I would almost bet the guy in the truck "thought" he was in a hurry and the cyclist was holding him up. So he figured he would stop and lay a beating on him, when it would have taken less time to pass the cyclist when it was safe to do so. I have seen that lack of logic before, though not to that extreme.

Reactions: 2

cheezyridr

· #23 · Jul 23, 2017

Scotty said:
That can be in ANY trade. Tin whackers are a rather entitled bunch, though I'd say there's rougher trades.

we are one of the very last of the true crafts in construction. all the others are what i call "bin trades". what i mean is, if you are a plumber or a sparky, com guy, sprinky-dink, etc. all their parts come from a bin at some supply house. sheetmental is 100% custom to every job. it's one hell of alot easier and cheaper for a plumber to offset a pipe than it is for a tin knocker.

Jim DaddyO said:
I would almost bet the guy in the truck "thought" he was in a hurry and the cyclist was holding him up. So he figured he would stop and lay a beating on him, when it would have taken less time to pass the cyclist when it was safe to do so. I have seen that lack of logic before, though not to that extreme.

this^^^ all day long, this is so spot on. sofa king we tall did

also i noticed the article called him a "truck driver". somehow i dont see a pick up as the kind of truck that makes one a truck driver. anyone with a license can drive one.

butterknucket

· #24 · Jul 23, 2017

Our brains being in a constant state of over-stimulation from technology certainly contributes to things like this.

Scotty

· #25 · Jul 23, 2017 (Edited)

cheezyridr said:
we are one of the very last of the true crafts in construction. all the others are what i call "bin trades". what i mean is, if you are a plumber or a sparky, com guy, sprinky-dink, etc. all their parts come from a bin at some supply house. sheetmental is 100% custom to every job. it's one hell of alot easier and cheaper for a plumber to offset a pipe than it is for a tin knocker.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking them. I agree there's more to that trade than others, especially ICI over resi, but I don't understand where the elitist attitude comes from. I think it stems to back to the old tin and iron days where every SMM had to do his own layouts. Now many shops don't have any bench men because it is all cnc burnt. The talent has largely become reduced to assemble in the field or bang fittings together in the shop, and depending on what the installation is (spiral, S and drive, Nexus etc), there is varying flexibility when you run into snags.
I work for a multi-trade company, and our fabricators are by far more skilled than our whackers in both techniques and knowledge, yet they are considered lower down the pole than the TW's...I'll never understand it and I've done both.

I'd say that the roughest people I've encountered are flat roofers. Rental shops used to have stickers on the equipment saying "Do not rent to flat roofers" because of the probability of the equipment to coming back damaged and/or covered in tar. Industrial Millwrights and steelworkers also have their of roughnecks. Again, the coarser the trade, the coarser the worker it seems.

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cheezyridr

· #26 · Jul 23, 2017

Scotty said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking them. I agree there's more to that trade than others, especially ICI over resi, but I don't understand where the elitist attitude comes from. I think it stems to back to the old tin and iron days where every SMM had to do his own layouts. Now many shops don't have any bench men because it is all cnc burnt. The talent has largely become reduced to assemble in the field or bang fittings together in the shop, and depending on what the installation is (spiral, S and drive, Nexus etc), there is varying flexibility when you run into snags.
I work for a multi-trade company, and our fabricators are by far more skilled than our whackers in both techniques and knowledge, yet they are considered lower down the pole than the TW's...I'll never understand it and I've done both.

I'd say that the roughest people I've encountered are flat roofers. Rental shops used to have stickers on the equipment saying "Do not rent to flat roofers" because of the probability of the equipment to coming back damaged and/or covered in tar. Industrial Millwrights and steelworkers also have their of roughnecks. Again, the coarser the trade, the coarser the worker it seems.

in ontario it goes, and is going, even further than that. although anyone doing sheetmental is required to have those layout skills, (by the college of trades c of q) few ever get a chance to use them so it's not retained well. however the new trend is for the fab shop to ship sub assemblies with branch take-offs already cut in, and trapeze hangers already cut and punched. it's long been a thing here, and worse still, except in the case of union employees, apprenticeship and trade certification are not required here. on top of that, there is a bill being fought over in your gov't to reduce the work sheetmetal workers actually do. if the owners group and their lobbyists have their way, a journeyman will only place the duct in it's hangers, and make the end treatment connections. unskilled labor will be doing the hangers. there is a protest at city hall every tuesday morning. local 30 has members there every week.

but towards your main point about the coarseness that seems to be a part of the trade...
i think it comes from a couple of things. one being the fact that it is physically demanding work, and that tends to attract people who's strengths are less mental, more physical. on top of that there are cultural (among the trades) factors at play. sheetmental workers are usually pushed harder than the other mechanical trades. the men are expected to deliver more. i don't know why that is, but i have been seeing it for over 30 yrs, both in canada and the states. wages for sheetmental workers are held down so that they grow far slower than the other trades too. for many of us, it is perceived as a lack of appreciation and respect. when i have to move a 10" line to accommodate an hvac guy running four 3/4" lines, it's really frustrating. it makes my already demanding job that much harder. it creates resentment. for guys who (largely) aren't as much thinkers as doers, the result can be attitude sometimes.

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vadsy

· #27 · Jul 23, 2017

cheezyridr said:
we are one of the very last of the true crafts in construction. all the others are what i call "bin trades". what i mean is, if you are a plumber or a sparky, com guy, sprinky-dink, etc. all their parts come from a bin at some supply house. sheetmental is 100% custom to every job. it's one hell of alot easier and cheaper for a plumber to offset a pipe than it is for a tin knocker.

Oh brother,... you know how do use tin snips and a tape measure up to 12 and you make it sound like you're forging the steel yourself in the fires of Mordor.

cheezyridr

· #28 · Jul 23, 2017

vadsy said:
Oh brother,... you know how do use tin snips and a tape measure up to 12 and you make it sound like you're forging the steel yourself in the fires of Mordor.

actually, if that's what you think, you know nothing of my trade. there is plenty of calculus and trig, i need to know how to do triangulation and true length. i can create complex 3 dimensional shapes with flat pattern layout. i know all the formulas for volume and area that a plumber does, but he knows none of the layout skills i use, aside from calculating offsets. how about 14x16 x12 with a 30 degree twist, straight on one corner? bust out you scissors and make one from cardboard. if it requires no skill, you can knock one out in an hour, right? post pics plz, i'd like to see it.
i can also make round, oval, and any other 3 dimensional shape from flat.

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Reactions: 2

Scotty

· #29 · Jul 24, 2017

cheezyridr said:
in ontario it goes, and is going, even further than that. although anyone doing sheetmental is required to have those layout skills, (by the college of trades c of q) few ever get a chance to use them so it's not retained well. however the new trend is for the fab shop to ship sub assemblies with branch take-offs already cut in, and trapeze hangers already cut and punched. it's long been a thing here, and worse still, except in the case of union employees, apprenticeship and trade certification are not required here. on top of that, there is a bill being fought over in your gov't to reduce the work sheetmetal workers actually do. if the owners group and their lobbyists have their way, a journeyman will only place the duct in it's hangers, and make the end treatment connections. unskilled labor will be doing the hangers. there is a protest at city hall every tuesday morning. local 30 has members there every week.

but towards your main point about the coarseness that seems to be a part of the trade...
i think it comes from a couple of things. one being the fact that it is physically demanding work, and that tends to attract people who's strengths are less mental, more physical. on top of that there are cultural (among the trades) factors at play. sheetmental workers are usually pushed harder than the other mechanical trades. the men are expected to deliver more. i don't know why that is, but i have been seeing it for over 30 yrs, both in canada and the states. wages for sheetmental workers are held down so that they grow far slower than the other trades too. for many of us, it is perceived as a lack of appreciation and respect. when i have to move a 10" line to accommodate an hvac guy running four 3/4" lines, it's really frustrating. it makes my already demanding job that much harder. it creates resentment. for guys who (largely) aren't as much thinkers as doers, the result can be attitude sometimes.

Excellent post. We just lost our only pro bench guy who had nearly 40 years experience. Now we buy all but the basic fittings that are needed quickly.

The trades are changing.

Adcandour

· #30 · Jul 24, 2017

Distortion said:
That must be a sheet metal thing. Close as I came to battling at work was in that trade. I got out of it , too many idiots.

I once had a sheet metal guy pull a chair out from under me while I was working on a grinder. We became good friends, and he welled up when I left, but man was he nuts. Had no idea it was a sheet metal thing

Scotty

· #31 · Jul 24, 2017

vadsy said:
Oh brother,... you know how do use tin snips and a tape measure up to 12 and you make it sound like you're forging the steel yourself in the fires of Mordor.

Nobody forges steel anymore and if they do. It's for hot forming ornamental iron

What's your trade?

Scottone

· #32 · Jul 24, 2017

Now I'm wondering whether the guy in the truck is a sheet metal guy

Reactions: 2

vadsy

· #33 · Jul 24, 2017

Scotty said:
What's your trade?

Philanderer by day philanthropist by night, for paperwork purposes I go by architect. Ever hear of Vandelay Industries?

Seriously though when it comes to trades I take most guys with a grain of salt. In my experience the guys that talk the most about being the best are often the first guys to let you down or do a less than stellar job. Compound all of this with the fact that this is being posted on an internet guitar forum and we have a potential perfect storm.

vadsy

· #34 · Jul 24, 2017 (Edited)

cheezyridr said:

It looks like you're probably really good at arts and crafts.

I'm not here to get into long winded internet debates on who's trade is the best and most important. It's good to have pride in what you do but to come out and say that you're the last of the true crafts just makes me roll my eyes and move on. Is it a union thing? I get that vibe but not sure if you're in one or not.

Scotty

· #35 · Jul 24, 2017 (Edited)

vadsy said:
Philanderer by day philanthropist by night, for paperwork purposes I go by architect. Ever hear of Vandelay Industries?

Seriously though when it comes to trades I take most guys with a grain of salt. In my experience the guys that talk the most about being the best are often the first guys to let you down or do a less than stellar job. Compound all of this with the fact that this is being posted on an internet guitar forum and we have a potential perfect storm.

No, and yes It could be. You are one of those guys we all grumble about...the guys we all say should spend at least 2 or three years in the field as part of your internship or whatever you call it in your "trade". Arch and Eng both,..

If I only had a dollar for every stupid thing I saw on a drawing... I would have a lot more toys and a much bigger property

vadsy

· #36 · Jul 24, 2017

Scotty said:
No, and yes It could be. You are one of those guys we all grumble about...the guys we all say should spend at least 2 or three years in the field as part of your internship or whatever you call it in your "trade". Arch and Eng both,..

Listen, I'm just messing around here, I'm not taking any of this seriously and neither should you. The field I'm in, which I'm decent at, I've been in for a while. Always something new to learn though....

Reactions: 1

Lincoln

· #37 · Jul 24, 2017

OMG the tin-bashers are setting up to take over the world? Why didn't someone tell me sooner?

cheezyridr

· #38 · Jul 24, 2017

vadsy said:
It looks like you're probably really good at arts and crafts.

I'm not here to get into long winded internet debates on who's trade is the best and most important. It's good to have pride in what you do but to come out and say that you're the last of the true crafts just makes me roll my eyes and move on. Is it a union thing? I get that vibe but not sure if you're in one or not.

i am in a union now, and was in toronto, but before that i worked non-union for 25 yrs. i'll probably go back to being non-union here, because my paycheck here in 2017 working for local 19 is lighter than the one i was getting in 2006 working non union. i also was a draftsman for a while, back in the 90's. part of the reason i left was because i got tired of architects and engineers who couldn't be bothered to answer RFIs on things like how they expected me to put two 12" round ducts in a 12" square chase, all while having not enough budgeted hours and no equipment cuts.
however, if you go back and re-read the post you originally responded to, you will see that i said one of the last of the true crafts. i intentionally made sure i said it that way because i know we are not the only ones.

Jim DaddyO

· #39 · Jul 24, 2017 (Edited)

Back to the OP. Why is a 65 year old guy carrying around a big dildo in his pocket? %h(*&

Reactions: 1

Distortion

· #40 · Jul 24, 2017

Scottone said:
Now I'm wondering whether the guy in the truck is a sheet metal guy

Probably retired Tin Knocker. Frustrated he no longer has a apprentice to brow beat every day.

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