[Budda]

Read about it here:

Florida shooting rampage is an 'attack on all of us,' Obama says

50 dead, 53 injured. America has had more shootings than days of the year in 2016. There's so many problems with the fact that this happened. A lot of my US friends are posting about how people need to stop talking about change and start making changes. Let's hope it happens.

Also, headlines state that it's the worst mass shooting in US history - reading some comments lead me to this:

Wounded Knee Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Robert1950]

And Drumpf condemns this as an act of terrorism by Islamic extremists. Not once does he offer condolences to families and friends of the dead and wounded. Not once does he acknowledge this as a hate crime, let alone that it was against the LGBT community.

Scott - if this comment is too political, please delete, but I had to get this out.

 

[laristotle]

I think that's as close as he's going to get to being semi-human.
It's a start.
baby steps .. baby steps..

 

[Budda]

I wouldn't even want to talk about Trump at this point - talk about the issues that the LGBTQ community faces regularly, talk about the fact that leaders need to enact real change to stop these shootings from taking place so damn frequently, talk about what steps we personally take in our daily lives to stop spreading hatred and fear of those different than ourselves. Talk about acts of compassion and love for people and communities that help everyone. Trump's name is a waste of breath right now - it will surface again soon enough.

 

[laristotle]

.. talk about what steps we personally take in our daily lives to stop spreading hatred and fear of those different than ourselves.

Unfortunately, 'hate' is ingrained in some individuals so deep (mostly because of religious dogma) that any discussions with these people are pointless.
Hence, why laws have had to be enacted to deal with this problem. sigh.

 

[mhammer]

Every day across the U.S, and many other countries, there are gay-bashings, sometimes fatal. Common enough that they are unlikely to make the news anymore. The perpetrators are Christian, atheist, and every other group you can imagine that is similarly creeped out by the idea of two guys kissing. We normally consider it to be motivated by intolerance, and any single such act a hate crime. When someone who happens to be Muslim commits a similar hate crime, and it is more lethal because of the easy access to very lethal weapons developed to inflict mass casualties, somehow it magically transforms into "terrorism". I watched the Governor and Attorney General of Florida tell the press about how justice is swift in Florida, and that it was "terror". At no time did they make any reference to hatred and to access to automatic weapons.

 

[torndownunit]

And Drumpf condemns this as an act of terrorism by Islamic extremists. Not once does he offer condolences to families and friends of the dead and wounded. Not once does he acknowledge this as a hate crime, let alone that it was against the LGBT community.

Scott - if this comment is too political, please delete, but I had to get this out.

As you said we might be getting to political but it was a hate crime that was also related to someone's interpretation of the religion and it's views against homosexuality. It apparently was a terrorist act with ties to ISIS.

It's just so damn horrible. And I don't even know how to describe how I feel except just disappointed more in the things people are capable of every day. These people were texting their families telling them they were about to die. It just doesn't seem real.

 

[fredyfreeloader]

And Drumpf condemns this as an act of terrorism by Islamic extremists. Not once does he offer condolences to families and friends of the dead and wounded. Not once does he acknowledge this as a hate crime, let alone that it was against the LGBT community.

Scott - if this comment is too political, please delete, but I had to get this out.

The Donald did give condolences to the injured and the families of the dead on his Facebook page more than once. Other than that everything on his page was political so I'll leave it at that.

 

[mhammer]

I think there are a great many people who are uncomfortable with same-sex relations, independently of religion. Their religious beliefs might confirm the legitimacy of those feelings for the person, but the emotional reaction they have to whatever the object of their disgust might be is pretty well of their own making. My own religious upbringing taught me to reject certain things, but at no time did it ever foster disgust or anger. Indeed, I dont think the disgust we feel at senseless slaughter requires any sort of ideological basis, religious or otherwise. You either feel it or you don't.

 

[mhammer]

Also, headlines state that it's the worst mass shooting in US history - reading some comments lead me to this:

Wounded Knee Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Worth bringing up Wounded Knee, but I think the distinction needs to be made between a frenzied impromptu slaughter with many perpetrators (whose actions may well have had a racist basis), and a deliberate planned act with one or two perpetrators.

 

[Budda]

I would agree with that.

 

[torndownunit]

I think there are a great many people who are uncomfortable with same-sex relations, independently of religion. Their religious beliefs might confirm the legitimacy of those feelings for the person, but the emotional reaction they have to whatever the object of their disgust might be is pretty well of their own making. My own religious upbringing taught me to reject certain things, but at no time did it ever foster disgust or anger. Indeed, I dont think the disgust we feel at senseless slaughter requires any sort of ideological basis, religious or otherwise. You either feel it or you don't.

We are dealing with extremists is a huge factor as well though. They are being taught they will be rewarded for these types of actions.

 

[mhammer]

Billions of people have been taught about heavenly rewards. A radio segment on James Joyce this morning went on about the manner in which the "fires of hell" were conveyed to him as a youth by priests. The vast majority of people have been taught about who and what is their enemy nd what they would be rewarded for. But it doesn't automatically prompt the emotions that lead to rash actions.

That said, YES, what people get taught can make their feelings seem more legitimate to them. Having someone say "I know what you mean" in respone to the statement "I hate that guy/those people" doesn't make the emotions abate or disappear.

There is also the role of blame here. The opportunity to blame is a big factor. The shooter at Ecole Polytechnique blamed women forthe difficulties in his life, especially strong women. Valery Fabrikant at Concordia blamed other faculty members for his inability to get tenure. Blaming inflames, but it also explains things to people, and legitimates actions. If things are "the fault" of this group or that, then my vindictive actions towards them are justified. So, I won't entirely discount what people get taught by their religion or country's or community's leaders, since it can lead to blame. We saw this in Rwanda. We saw this in Bosnia. We see this in so many other places.

 

[torndownunit]

Billions of people have been taught about heavenly rewards. A radio segment on James Joyce this morning went on about the manner in which the "fires of hell" were conveyed to him as a youth by priests. The vast majority of people have been taught about who and what is their enemy nd what they would be rewarded for. But it doesn't automatically prompt the emotions that lead to rash actions.

That said, YES, what people get taught can make their feelings seem more legitimate to them. Having someone say "I know what you mean" in respone to the statement "I hate that guy/those people" doesn't make the emotions abate or disappear.

There is also the role of blame here. The opportunity to blame is a big factor. The shooter at Ecole Polytechnique blamed women forthe difficulties in his life, especially strong women. Valery Fabrikant at Concordia blamed other faculty members for his inability to get tenure. Blaming inflames, but it also explains things to people, and legitimates actions. If things are "the fault" of this group or that, then my vindictive actions towards them are justified. So, I won't entirely discount what people get taught by their religion or country's or community's leaders, since it can lead to blame. We saw this in Rwanda. We saw this in Bosnia. We see this in so many other places.

I am not debating what you are saying, but... from what I read the guy made a 911 call saying he was a member of ISIS and was about to commit this act. I don't really think there is any grey area when it comes to what ISIS is up to. They are pretty clear with their mandate.

The problem obviously comes in when people expand ISIS to "Islam", which is where what you say totally applies.

 

[GuitarsCanada]

I am not debating what you are saying, but... from what I read the guy made a 911 call saying he was a member of ISIS and was about to commit this act. I don't really think there is any grey area when it comes to what ISIS is up to. They are pretty clear with their mandate.

The problem obviously comes in when people expand ISIS to "Islam", which is where what you say totally applies.

The real problem we are facing now, worldwide is that ISIS is no longer an organization. This lunatic no more "belonged" to ISIS than I do. It has become (just what the originators had intended) a global Jihad. Any moron can now claim they are ISIS or associated with ISIS. The actual leaders of such are very happy that some lone mental case claims affiliation when they commit these crimes. The more they happen, the more they will.

 

[Guitar101]

The Donald did give condolences to the injured and the families of the dead on his Facebook page more than once. Other than that everything on his page was political so I'll leave it at that.

I wouldn't think that Donald Trump sit's down on a computer and types messages into Facebook and I wouldn't believe that anything on it actually came from Trump.

 

[ronmac]

Why is it that a society that deems it necessary to ban hair gel from going on an airplane (with no known casualties or anyone getting gooed to death) freely allows the promotion and sales of weapons that cause multiple casualties every day?

I guess the HGA (Hair Gel Association) doesn't place enough money in the same pockets that the NRA does.

 

[Milkman]

I don't think this can be solved. The problem is human nature. We're still not evolved enough.

My only solution (and it's only so effective), is to avoid large groups of people as much as possible.

 

[torndownunit]

The real problem we are facing now, worldwide is that ISIS is no longer an organization. This lunatic no more "belonged" to ISIS than I do. It has become (just what the originators had intended) a global Jihad. Any moron can now claim they are ISIS or associated with ISIS. The actual leaders of such are very happy that some lone mental case claims affiliation when they commit these crimes. The more they happen, the more they will.

Not disagreeing, it will likely come out that this guy has a mental illness. But, there are religious fanatics out there who aren't mentally ill, just fanatics. And you have a group like ISIS that they can latch on to telling them things like all homosexuals should be killed. It's a hate issue and a religious issue combined. And stupid as hell on both fronts.

 

[mhammer]

Yep. But it's also a use-of-force issue. Religious divisiveness and hatred may well direct an individual to think that a given group "should all just die or disappear", and will be condemned to hellfire or some such rot. But it won't necessarily direct them, or permit them, to take up arms and use force. We should not overlook the role of a culture, and broadly-dispersed set of beliefs, whose subtext is that armed force can and should be used to remove whatever offends one. I might point out that should some idiot do to a political candidate what Sirhan Sirhan did to Bobby Kennedy, that would also be an expression of the same set of broadly dispersed beliefs. Live by the sword, etc. etc.