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Discussion Starter #1
or are we not permitted? Or will folks just refuse to offer opinions `cause it`s too hot a topic?
I gotta know.
 

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I can tell you one thing. There is a guy I work with at GM in the states. He is originally from Lebanon. Most of his family is still over there. They are from one of the little towns that is seeing a lot of the action. I got talking to him about it a few weeks back. One of the interesting details is that he, nor most people over there (he claims) sees the hezbollah (or whatever the hell you call them) as terrorists. They see them as legitimate protectors of Lebanon. A legitimate political party. So if that is the case, and I have no idea if it is, then it's another vietnam.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
my understanding is...hezbollah was created to fight the Israelies when they occupied Lebanon more than 20 years ago. And it`s a bit foggy but...the Shabat Farms[sic?] I hear so much about...sounds like it`s occupied land that in fact belongs to Lebanon, I think if the Palestinian issue were handled better, things could go a lot better in the neighborhood... not perfect `cause this goes back what...thousands of years?
You know I met some Bulgarians here and during a conversation once a woman said to me...you Canadians are so lucky that you can all get along so well...I was thinking so, is it luck? Or are we just able to see beyond the religious or political?
 

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...i have been trying to understand this for years.

do the hamas, plo and hezbollah have legitmate grievances? if so, why have they not been addressed, and why does israel get a free pass as "the good guys"?

or, is israel truly blameless? is it possible that the hamas, plo and hezbollah simply hate them and want them destroyed for no reason whatsoever?

my suspicion is that there are no "good guys" in this conflict, and claims that one side is "more evil" than the other are, therefore, moot.

that said, i am determined to keep an open mind.

-dh
 

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They get a free pass for the suffering in WW2. Personnaly, that cuts no ice with me. I think that this is the start of WW# and the Islamic whackos are not going to stop, ever. Call me a naysayer, but its going to get much worse before it stops. All it takes is Iran to lob a nuke, which they would do if they could.

CT.
 

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Not taking any sides but Isreal walked out of Lebanon with a promise of peace in the past. The evacuated the gaza strip in hopes of peace. With the events that led up to this it seems as the Hezbollah were itching for a fight. The Hamas just moved there front forward and kept up there fight. So what gives??? I can understand Isreal being pissed off, and they have become more agressive because there getting it on two fronts. It's a scary place to be over there... and it's made it troublesome over here.
 

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I think Israel is the bully in this case. If not for the backing of the US government they might take a slightly less "tough guy" posture with their neighbors.


Personally I'd like to see the West butt the heck out and let the Middle East settle their own affairs without our meddling.


Israel's reaction to the capture of a couple of soldiers is overkill in the true sense of the word. They're doing VERY little to gather support from the rest of the world.
 

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jroberts said:
If you look at the history of the region, even just as far back as a hundred years or so, there really isn't any clear "bad guy" or "good guy" in this conflict. It's many shades of grey. The issues are far more complex than most pundits on either side of the issue would like us to believe.
...i have a feeling you're right. i don't like the smug self-rightneousness on either side. you defend the hamas, plo or hezbollah and you're anti-semetic. you criticize israel and you're pro-terrorist.

it does amaze me that cooler heads do not somehow prevail, but cooler heads and high testosterone levels are probably mutually exclusive.

its certainly interesting to live in an era when anyone that believes in peace and diplomacy is defined as naive, at best.

-dh
 

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I am just curious as to what a country is supposed to do when rockets are being launched without even a specific target into their country though. I hate seeing any type of war, but what exactly are you supposed to do?
 

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I think the Isralies are brilliant. Its a country with elected officials and yet if you critisize them its because youre anti-Semetic. If only George Bush or Adoph Hitler could somehow brain wash the world like that, no one would ever critisize them. I also like their brilliance of hammering Lebannon and getting everyones eyes away from the Gaza Strip where they are doing daily rampages. The bombing of airports, and the highways will insure their tourism will flounder, and by hitting a few of the military targets, they might be able to coax the Lebannesse army into battle and then have an excuse to take over the entire country. These guys arent stoopid........
 

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Discussion Starter #13
and...Iran has rejected any kind of diplomatic solution to their uranium enrichment program , so will Israel stand idly by and let them develop an A bomb or will they succumb to Iran`s taunting and launch a pre-emptive strike which would certainly open the flood gates. But on the other hand...it`s been said Israel has the bomb, so I can understand the neighborhood wanting them as well you know, as a deterrent.
I don`t know what the answer is, I just hate watching the kids caught in the middle, on all sides.
 

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Evil is as evil does...

Accept2 said:
I think the Isralies are brilliant. Its a country with elected officials and yet if you critisize them its because youre anti-Semetic. If only George Bush or Adoph Hitler could somehow brain wash the world like that, no one would ever critisize them. I also like their brilliance of hammering Lebannon and getting everyones eyes away from the Gaza Strip where they are doing daily rampages. The bombing of airports, and the highways will insure their tourism will flounder, and by hitting a few of the military targets, they might be able to coax the Lebannesse army into battle and then have an excuse to take over the entire country. These guys arent stoopid........

The peoples in that part of the world seem worse than the Irish for holding grudges over centuries. Very complicated for someone in the West to try to figure out.

Still, some things stand out like sore thumbs to me. It seems that while Israel aims at rocket launchers and other military targets they often kill some nearby civilians as collateral damage. Even a UN rescue team has admitted that when they inspected the wreckage of a hospital in Lebanon they found the remains of a rocket launcher. Meanwhile Hezbollah launches hundreds of rockets per day SPECIFICALLY AT ISRAELI CIVILIANS and that is considered somehow proportionate "tit for tat".

Israel went into Lebanon and occupied it last time to prevent it from being used as a staging area to shoot at Israel. They eventually pulled out 'cuz the UN promised under Resolution 1559 to police the area and make sure that there would be no more rocket launches that land on the heads of civilian Israelis.

No policing was ever done and Hezbollah used the time to stockpile thousands more rockets and to hide the launchers inside Lebanese schools, hospitals and apartment buildings. Now they could stop the war in an instant by simply returning the two Israeli soldiers they kidnapped from within Israel after tunneling under the border. They choose instead to keep launching the rockets.

Has anyone ever heard of a Jewish suicide bomber blowing up a busload of civilian men, women and children?

At this stage of my life after hearing about such things for the over 40 years I've been mature enough to understand them I think listening to whose claims are right or wrong is often just a distraction. Evil is more clearly seen by deeds. The definition of a terrorist is one who deliberately targets civilians to achieve his political ends. This is quite different from civilian deaths from collateral damage from trying to stop attacks.

This is also why I cannot support the natives in Caledonia. I totally agree that they have been shafted for centuries over their land claims. The problem is that they are using the citizens of Caledonia as cannon fodder in a battle with the government. Their tactics dishonour their claims, in my opinion.

As for Hezbollah being supported by the majority of the Lebanese, how can one tell? Notice how their legitimate government has been very careful to distance themselves from Hezbollah's actions without actually accusing Hezbollah. This is only prudent. Hezbollah has not been elected by anybody and doesn't need to be. They have the biggest guns! If any Lebanese was foolish enough to critize them in front of a CNN camera they'd be dead before the day was out! They could oust the legitimate Lebanese government in less than an hour, if they choose to.

It doesn't matter if you believe that Israel is totally wrong. Why on earth would you expect someone to quietly stand there and let someone rain rockets down on their city streets and homes, FOR YEARS!!!???

Only a fool would be surprised if after repeatedly kicking a dog it finally bit him.

Hezbollah has stated for years that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth. Never heard Israel make such a statement. Never seen Israel invade another country unless attacked first. We've seen many instances of other countries launching "first strike" wars on Israel. They send in their tanks and then after being beaten back they whine that Israel fought back "too hard!" Why didn't they just stay home in the first place?

In Israel there are many Arab citizens. Can anyone name any Arab country that has taken in the displaced Palestinians? Again, I judge by actions and not words.

There seems to be some kind of "lefty liberal" idea that in any fight both sides are equally right and no one is totally wrong. This seems completely loopy to me! If someone was firing rockets into my neighbourhood I couldn't care less about their politics. To me they would be evil incarnate.

And if someone was hiding rocket launchers in my kids' school to use them as human shields then the first dark night I'd be out throwing some Molotov cocktails at them for putting me and my family in such danger!

But hey, what do I know? I must be a running dog lackey of the bourgoisie for not believing everything I see on CBC NewsWorld...
 

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Here's another question. How did America's oil get under the middle east?:rolleyes:
 

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Hey Bill thanks for expanding on what I was trying to say earlier. Can only take so much until they have to fight back.
 

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Wild Bill said:
The definition of a terrorist is one who deliberately targets civilians to achieve his political ends. This is quite different from civilian deaths from collateral damage from trying to stop attacks

In Israel there are many Arab citizens. Can anyone name any Arab country that has taken in the displaced Palestinians? Again, I judge by actions and not words.
Great post Wild Bill...not that I agree with you though. According to your definition of a terrorist would the Allied actions in WW2 of the fire bombing of European cities and the Atomic destruction in Japan be considered terrorism? One mans terrorist is anothers soldier/hero/freedom fighter and the winners always write the history books.
Also there are many Arabs living in Israel but from what I have seen and read they are treated as second class citizens at best and even sub human in the worst cases.
I do not believe there is any totally right or wrong side in any war. To me it is the greatest of human tragedies, but wars will probibly always be. Countries fight wars and they will do whatever it takes to win according to their strength, weapons etc. Unfortunatly this usually involves civilian deaths on both sides. With all the wealth of material and knowledge in this world you would think we could come up with ways to eliminate these conflicts but sadly I think it is part of our nature. To me the worst thing is how we in the west view these events as someone else,s problem unless it directly affects us such as 9/11 or even oil prices and economic fallout.
I grew up during the Vietnam years and sadly the recent Canadian deaths in this "war on terrorism" is starting to remind me of Walter Cronkite,s nightly body count on the news. I fully support our troops and feel for their families but I really am questioning the need for the sacrifice of our young people. There has got to be a better solution to the Iraq, Iran , Afghanistan, North Korea, Middle East etc. problems than just punching back. Sometimes it,s harder and takes alot more guts to find a peaceful way out.
 

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jroberts said:
If you look at the history of the region, even just as far back as a hundred years or so, there really isn't any clear "bad guy" or "good guy" in this conflict. It's many shades of grey. The issues are far more complex than most pundits on either side of the issue would like us to believe.

Not to discount the hitory of the conflict, but it's hard to deny that Israel's reaction is heavy handed and out of proportion to the situation.
 

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Wild Bill said:
There seems to be some kind of "lefty liberal" idea that in any fight both sides are equally right and no one is totally wrong....
...no, i think its that liberals don't buy into the "well, they're more wrong than we are" argument. i agree that the plo, hama and hezbollah appear to be "more wrong" than the israelis. you could probably prove that the northern irish are "more wrong" than the southern irish, and vice versa. but it begs the question: so what? the point is that trying to establish a good guy/bad guy status is pointless in most situations (nazi germany excepted). even the so-called terrorists believe that they are the good guys, and that god is on their side.

as someone else here suggested, if you're only going to focus on who is "badder" or fights dirtier, who kills the most civilians etc, the real problems will never be solved and the conflict will never end.

-dh
 

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Wild Bill said:
And if someone was hiding rocket launchers in my kids' school to use them as human shields then the first dark night I'd be out throwing some Molotov cocktails at them for putting me and my family in such danger!...
...thereby making you, and your family, the target, and inviting retaliation.

wouldn't it make more sense to start with "why"?

-dh
 
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