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Discussion Starter #1
I got a guy in the USA that really want to buy my guitar , but I will not ship it because of the rosewood fret board.
I cannot drive across the border, I have no papers or passport.
If the guy comes across the border and picks up the guitar , what does he need to get through customs...

If I need to get forms can you get them from Service Canada..
 

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Nothing at all as far as I know. I've bought a half dozen guitars in the US with rosewood since Jan. 2017 and have had no paperwork with the exception of the receipt. He will need a receipt so he can declare value. The De Minimis threshold in the US is $800US so if the guitar is less than that he won't be paying taxes. It is my understanding that if you are travelling with the instrument on your person you are fine... again that has been my experience travelling back into Canada with a rosewood necked guitar.
 

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I bought a guitar from "My Favorite Guitars" in Florida. A Martin D-18GE that had a Brazilian Rosewood head stock overlay. Jon at MFG said not to worry as it wasn't enough that the border would care. There was no paperwork for it and I was a little worried but had no issues. With a used guitar and a braz fretboard I think I'd worry a little more.
I'll ask on the Martin forum for you as they seem to be well educated on these matters.
 

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On the Martin forum the consensus is get the paperwork to be on the safe side. I think its one of those things that you could most likely cross over the border without paperwork but legally they have the right to confiscate the guitar. For me, I wouldn't take a chance.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
This guy is driving 22 hrs to come to Canada to buy a guitar that is being sold for 1400.oo USD ...I do not want him driving all that way . To end up the guitar being taken by customs...

I went to the application web site and it won’t come up, anybody else having problems accessing the form..I don’t think I could even fill the form out, I remember seeing it awhile ago, and they are asking question like ,what species of rose wood , and how much does it weigh....The government has gone crazy...
 

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shipping a guitar with a rose wood fret board is an issue? One would think that the manufacturer of the guitar would have taken care of all the procurement and procedures needed to build with the rose wood. I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong here) that it's because of the non-ethical wood harvesting or however you say it. So wouldn't the issues all be taken care of when the guitar was manufactured?
 

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shipping a guitar with a rose wood fret board is an issue? One would think that the manufacturer of the guitar would have taken care of all the procurement and procedures needed to build with the rose wood. I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong here) that it's because of the non-ethical wood harvesting or however you say it. So wouldn't the issues all be taken care of when the guitar was manufactured?
Unfortunately not.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I called to see if I could get any answers, and they told me as long as the rosewood is under 20 lbs and is not Brazilian rosewood and it’s for personal use you do not need a permit..
 

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Even if the guitar was built years ago it is an issue? Or is it not an issue if it is a recently built guitar with today's standards? I do not understand the issue here if you can forgive my ignorance on the scene. I had no idea this was actually a thing.
 

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Even if the guitar was built years ago it is an issue? Or is it not an issue if it is a recently built guitar with today's standards? I do not understand the issue here if you can forgive my ignorance on the scene. I had no idea this was actually a thing.
It doesn't matter when the guitar was built. If CITES paperwork is not provided, there is a chance it will be seized at customs if the guitar is shipped across the border. It is different when one crosses the border in person with the instrument, then no CITES documentation is required.
 

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This guy is driving 22 hrs to come to Canada to buy a guitar that is being sold for 1400.oo USD ...I do not want him driving all that way . To end up the guitar being taken by customs...
If you really want to be safe, have him fill the form US Customs form 7523, available online. He should have no problem crossing the border back to the US if he presents this filled document to the custom agent.
Form 7523 - Entry and Manifest of Merchandise Free of Duty, Carriers Certificate and Release
 

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CITES....to the google box I go. This all makes sense to me now. Thanks for the knowledge peeps. Knowledge is Power!
 

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It doesn't matter when the guitar was built. If CITES paperwork is not provided, there is a chance it will be seized at customs if the guitar is shipped across the border. It is different when one crosses the border in person with the instrument, then no CITES documentation is required.
again, for the slow like myself. if I buy rosewood guitars or parts in the US and carry them over the border while travelling, I do not require CITES paperwork, correct?
 

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again, for the slow like myself. if I buy rosewood guitars or parts in the US and carry them over the border while travelling, I do not require CITES paperwork, correct?
That's correct. I contacted the head of CITES Permit Policy and Operations Unit / CITES Canada; a very helpful lady that very patiently answered all my questions.

My plan was to have a used guitar mailed near the border (in the US) and then go pick it up by car and cross the border back with it to avoid having to deal with CITES issues. She confirmed that a CITES permit isn't required when crossing the border in person with rosewood, as long as the total weight is less than 10kg and it's not for commercial purposes. The 10kg exemption doesn't apply for rosewood being shipped across the border by mail because then the authorities have no assurance the rosewood won't be used for commercial purposes. That's a somewhat rough translation of her answer; don't hesitate to PM me if you want more details about the entire email exchange for future reference.
 

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That's correct. I contacted the head of CITES Permit Policy and Operations Unit / CITES Canada; a very helpful lady that very patiently answered all my questions.

My plan was to have a used guitar mailed near the border (in the US) and then go pick it up by car and cross the border back with it to avoid having to deal with CITES issues. She confirmed that a CITES permit isn't required when crossing the border in person with rosewood, as long as the total weight is less than 10kg and it's not for commercial purposes. The 10kg exemption doesn't apply for rosewood being shipped across the border by mail because then the authorities have no assurance the rosewood won't be used for commercial purposes. That's a somewhat rough translation of her answer; don't hesitate to PM me if you want more details about the entire email exchange for future reference.
Thank you very much for the detailed answer. I had read something like this before but it is always nice to confirm and clearly you are the right person to ask.
 

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That's correct. I contacted the head of CITES Permit Policy and Operations Unit / CITES Canada; a very helpful lady that very patiently answered all my questions.

My plan was to have a used guitar mailed near the border (in the US) and then go pick it up by car and cross the border back with it to avoid having to deal with CITES issues. She confirmed that a CITES permit isn't required when crossing the border in person with rosewood, as long as the total weight is less than 10kg and it's not for commercial purposes. The 10kg exemption doesn't apply for rosewood being shipped across the border by mail because then the authorities have no assurance the rosewood won't be used for commercial purposes. That's a somewhat rough translation of her answer; don't hesitate to PM me if you want more details about the entire email exchange for future reference.
I question this information. And it wouldn't be the first time some person on the phone and the border guards on the front lines would disagree on an issue. Remember the border guards have a lot of power and there isn't anyone that can or will challenge them.
10kg is 22 pounds. You could easily have a guitar completely made of rosewood and be under that weight. So why is there an issue at all? An acoustic guitar with Rosewood back and sides will have a lot less than 10kg or rosewood weight. I have no skin in the game and the OP and buyer can do whatever they want and most likely there won't be an issue. But theres a gamble and if you don't mind taking the chance.
I have a Martin guitar with madagascar rosewood on it and I wouldn't take a chance crossing the border with it with out cities paperwork
This link here states that even a guitar with a rosewood fingerboard or any amount of rosewood must be accompanied by cities paperwork.
So this is the problem of taking one source of information as gospel. You can ask 10 different people in government who should know this and probably get 10 different answers. In the end its the owner of the guitar thats taking the chance.

New CITES Regulations For All Rosewood Species

When shipping musical instruments that include any amount (i.e. fingerboard, back, sides, binding) of Dalbergia or the other newly regulated woods out of your country as part of a commercial transaction, each one must be accompanied by a CITES re-export certificate.
 

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If you buy a Guitar with Rosewood in the US and carry it across the border into Canada, then it is a "Commercial Purpose". An exemption would potentially apply if it is your Rosewood guitar and you are visiting the States and certify that you will bring it back to Canada after your visit. If you tell them you are bringing it to the US to "sell" it is for a "Commercial purpose" and you need the Cites paperwork. Similarly, if you are going to the States to "buy", it is a "Commercial Purpose" and you better have your paperwork because you are exporting the Rosewood into Canada. Be safe and get the Cites permit.
 

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I agree there are grey zones that may result in a different interpretation from a custom agent to another, and thus it may be indeed safer to get the CITES permit.

However, the information I reported was obtained through email communications with the head of CITES Permit Policy and Operations Unit / CITES Canada, and I kept the email thread for future use if needed. Also, this applies to crossing the Canadian border with a musical instrument that contains rosewood.

This is an excerpt from the CITES documentation - Changes to international trade controls for Rosewood :
CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN THE 10KG RULE? DOES 10KG REFER TO THE TOTAL WEIGHT OF THE ITEM OR THE WEIGHT OF PORTION OF THE ITEM THAT IS MADE OF ROSEWOOD? Paragraph (b) shown in the previous section indicates that specimens that weigh under 10kg and are traded for non-commercial purposes are outside the scope of CITES controls. Specimen refers to the weight of the rosewood species in the item and not the overall weight of the item. For instance, in the case of a musical instrument transported for personal use, a 12 kg instrument containing 5 kg of parts made from Dalbergia would be outside the scope of CITES controls.
When I contacted CITES representatives in Canada, I especially inquired about the "specimens that weigh under 10kg and are traded for non-commercial purposes are outside the scope of CITES controls" statement above. The answer I got was that buying a used guitar in the US and personally crossing the border to Canada with the instrument did not mandate a CITES permit, and was not considered commercial in scope.

Note that the 10kg exception does NOT apply to Brazilian rosewood.
 
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