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What Lucius said.

Also, remember that a lot of *us* have also been playing a long time, and *have* given modellers a lot of chances. Too many people assume if someone doesn't like a modelling device that he hasn't "tried to tweak it properly" or "hasn't heard the best of what it has to offer". That's not always true, certainly not in my case and I'm betting not in Jeff's case either.
 

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If I sounded as though I was being defensive, it was to point out that you had sounded defensive towards Jeff's post. No offense was meant.

People do know what you're saying. Well, some don't but then you'll never change their minds anyway. And that is sad, because modelling devices can be quite effective. I had an uphill struggle years ago trying to explain to people how to get the Johnson J-Station to sound good in recordings. It was pretty easy, but most people who claimed it wasn't possible hadn't bothered to really try. Once I posted clips which proved it could sound good, those people just vanished from the threads rather than admitting they might be a bit prejudiced towards the devices.

Anyway, the forums are full of people who either swear that modelling devices are "better than having amps" or that they're "terrible". Posting either one is a bit extreme. I'd also venture that saying "almost no one can tell the difference" is pushing it too, since I know many people who can.
 

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james on bass said:
My guitarist just bought a Line 6 Pro XT the other week. Got rid of his MArshall head. What do you guys think of that unit?
It sounds the same as the regular "XT" as far as I know, but it has more i/o and it's in a rack unit. The XTs are nice. For "direct" devices I'd say it's as good as anything else out there that I'm aware of.
 

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I see, that's the version which is built into the floorboard. Beyond that I don't see any difference between that and the other XT units in terms of amp models and such, at least from browsing Line 6's site just now. So I guess I'd have the same opinion of that as I do the regular XT. :) Oh wait, it has about 30 more stomp box effect models built in. Just noticed now. Since I'm not much of an effects nut, I probably wouldn't have noticed if I'd even have tried the Live back to back with the regular XT or Pro.

Are you planning to buy one?
 

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james on bass said:
What do you think of my guitarist using this pedalboard as his whole rig? No amp, just amp/cab modelers and added built-in stomp effects from the Line6 unit.
As long as it suits his needs, that's all that matters. And the band's needs too of course. If you don't like it for some reason (or the rest of the band doesn't), let him know. And don't just say something like "Dude, it sucks", explain why it doesn't work for the band. There might be a solution he can come to without having to compromise his setup. For instance if you don't like having to use a PA when you jam, maybe he can get a keyboard amp for personal amplification purposes at jams. Or if you're worried about the unit failing, he can buy a Sansamp or something as a backup for cheap.
 

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Milkman said:
The first time I tried an XT Live I tried it with a Marshall JCM 900, both in the input and in the effects return. It sounded like unadulterated crap.
I'm guessing you didn't defeat the cab sims on the unit. That's key to getting a better sound when playing it through a guitar amp in any way at all.
 

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Milkman said:
Yes, actually we tried both leaving the cab sims active and defeating them.
Pardon my presumptuousness. :) Every time someone has complained about how such a device sounds through a guitar poweramp (that I've seen on HC, the Gear Page, etc.), he has not shut off the cab sim.

I've had quite good luck running an original POD, POD2, and J-Station through a good tube guitar poweramp and guitar speaker cab. Most who heard these setups considered them superior to the devices themselves direct into a mixer, although still short of "the real thing".

You can't defeat the "poweramp sims" because there really aren't any. They try to simulate "the entire amp" with each "amp model".
 

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Milkman said:
Well, just before I mothballed my rack amp I tried the Tonelab through the power amp (Peavey Classic 60/60) and a 4 X 12 Celestion. It sounded not bad, but again it was like night and day compared to direct to console. With the direct approach I barely had to touch the strips on the board to get a good sound. It's almost flat. I just set the input gain on the two channels and bam!
That's one device I haven't tried through a guitar poweramp and cab. It makes sense that it should sound better direct, and that's part of what bothered me about the POD, J-Station and so forth. (Although I do think the PODxt is fine sounding direct too.)

Anyway the Peavey Classic 60/60 is a guitar poweramp I'm not very fond of. It's fairly bland sounding no matter what tubes are in it. They come up used for cheap quite often so people snap them up, and then they post on the boards about how their Mesa Quad, Marshall JMP-1 etc. preamps don't sound as good as they expect. :) No one thinks to blame the poweramp.

Also, depending on what Celestion speakers you have, and what cab that really was (cabs are important too), maybe you didn't get as good a sound as you could've because of that too.
 

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If that was a stock 1960A, it's a bit fizzly sounding partially because it's a slant (brighter sounding from that alone) and it has G12T-75 speakers (which can sound nice, but typically sound a bit sizzly because they seem to require very loud volumes to start sounding rounder). The ADA worked better with it because it's quite midrange-heavy and it filled up a lot of the space in the mids that the G12T-75s miss at lower to medium volumes. (I wouldn't use that ADA with Vintage 30s, personally, because the mids would stack up and be too much for me.)

I agree that running the modeller direct makes the most sense and it's what I'd ultimately prefer to do. Anyway, the point I was making was about avoiding making widesweeping generalizations. Unless you've tried a device with lots of "peripheral pieces of gear", it's hard to make an appropriate judgement of it.
 

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Sorry, I'm being a bit cranky today I guess. Maybe it's from posting on HC or maybe it's the lack of coffee, or both...

The GNX is a good enough sounding device. I found some sounds which were nice. It's in the realm of the J-Station to my ears, which is fine.
 

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It's not about being a "purist" or not for most people, actually. It's about what they feel comfortable with. There are some "purists" or "tube snobs", but most people I've met tend to just know what sounds good to them. A lot of times they don't even know why, and because of that they'll latch onto hype and misinformation which leads them down the wrong path with their gear (despite the fact it's still good, they could be using things better suited to their needs but they won't even consider it).

Anyway you might be surprised to find out that a fair portion of the audience can hear the difference. However it's more about the entire experience for them, and whether they can compare it to anything "better".

A great example of this is when I was in Winnipeg years ago and some band played with some older Marshall amps at The Albert--their sound was great and the crowd loved it. A band playing fairly similar material had been on just before and used amps which were "less than perfect" but still good. The mix wasn't the same and the crowd didn't react as well. I actually preferred their material, but I had to admit their sound was not making me as excited as the band that would follow.

In any case it's not so much about what's exactly what's being used as it is how well it actually works for the situation. If it sounds great to you in a jam, it will probably work very well at gigs. These direct devices/modellers have their strengths as well as their weaknesses. When guitarists use them for their strengths, that's when people stop noticing the difference. However if you feel you're compromising and you can hear it when you jam, that will probably show at gigs too; you won't be the only one who notices.
 
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