i watch the leafs

[fraser]

bah

also im pretty good at allied assault and european air war.
sdsre

[Gunny]

I admit; I'm a Leaf's fan. It ain't easy after all these years of not being a contender. Word on the street is that Ferguson won't last the week. A shakeup is needed but the bigger problem is the "faceless" ownership of the teacher's pension group or whatever they're called. There's no heart in the front office and since the rink is always full, no incentive to fix the problem...but you already know that, don't ya?

[traynor_garnet]

I was basically born a Leaf's fan but Saturday's game against Phoenix was a disgrace. I actually started cheering for Phoenix in hopes that a brutal loss would force the Leafs to do something.

A shake up is necessary, but the Teacher's Union gets an unfair rap. Just a bunch of semi-veiled anti-unionism. For years the Leafs out spent other teams; it wasn't for lack of money that this team failed to win anything.

Why they didn't trade McCabe two years ago I'll never know. He had a career season (but was already trailing off 3/4 thru), the Leafs were out of a playoff spot (and didn't get one) and would have just gone out in the first round anyway. McCabe would have commanded a HUGE return in draft picks and young talent. Instead we got nothing but a ridiculously overpriced defensive liability that is worth about 1/4 of his trade value two years ago.

TG

[ne1roc]

Stop watching the games. Stop going to the games. Stop buying their merchandise.

Money talks!

[fraser]

hi re1roc- its like a car wreck tho, cant look away. i spend nothing on merchandise and havent been to a game since i was a kid- it costs me like 3$ a month for the leafs tv is all-

gunny- yup looks like ferguson will get the chop, a bit late, but yeah. i totally agree regarding the front end of that organization- its like ne1roc said tho, the money keeps flowing regardless-

traynor_garnet- the mccabe thing is funny, i defend the signing of him, based on his career year he had, who knew he wouldnt just improve? a part of the problem is mixing the defense pairings up, kaberle and wozniewski make mistakes together. and you know, if they traded mccabe- they wouldve gotten somebody worse, as they always seem to do. i dont spend a lot of time thinking about it, and its always just a fact of life for me. had i not seen that pheonix game, i wouldnt have been compelled to say anything- that was pathetic wasnt it? lol.
again-
bah!

[Paul]

...but the Teacher's Union gets an unfair rap. Just a bunch of semi-veiled anti-unionism. For years the Leafs out spent other teams; it wasn't for lack of money that this team failed to win anything.

TG

The Ontario Teachers Pension Plan, (which is not the Ontario Teachers Federation, nor the Ontario College of Teachers), has a significant enough ownership in MLSE to require the Leafs to be managed for maximized profit. It's business, and winning the cup won't make the team either more profitable or more valuable.

The OTPP used to be managed and underwritten entirely by the Provincial Government. That has changed, and the OTPP managers can now speculate on the open market. I think Queens Parks still has some exposure to unfunded liability. The OTPP also took a multi-million $ hit as a result of the sub-prime mortgage crisis in the US real estate market. So anything that maximizes profit on the MLSE end of things is good.

I'm a Habs fan since the 70's, but my wife is a teacher, and for now the quality of her pension is somewhat dependant on the performance of MLSE, so it pains me to say:

Go, (cough), Leafs, (cough cough), Go!

[fraser]

hi paul- id rather be a habs fan, but my allegiance is purely geographical. if theyre was a team in hamilton- id be watching them. watching them lose likely. lol

[traynor_garnet]

The Ontario Teachers Pension Plan, (which is not the Ontario Teachers Federation, or the Ontario College of Teachers), has a significant enough ownership in MLSE to require the Leafs to be managed for maximized profit. It's business, and winning the cup won't make the team either more profitable or more valuable.

I've read similar arguments before and it doesn't make business sense. All home games in the playoffs are complete profit as the players are not paid for the extra games. Successful playoff runs generate a merchandising bonanza (you couldn't find an Oilers jersey to buy during their cup run). The extra interest and excitement draws more viewers which translates into increased advertising and coverage revenues. Yes, the Leafs enjoy an insane amount of popularity, viewership, and merchandising, but a good team would produce even more. The OTP would not risk its investment through hurting the team.

All of the "run for mere profit" arguments overlook the Leaf's past spending excesses, forget how close they (twice) came to making it to the cup in the 1990s (with very good and expensive teams), and simply don't make sense. If anything, the Ballard years are more indicative of a "run for mere profit" interpretation: John Kordic for Rus$ Courtnal anyone :eek:

TG

[fraser]

traynor_garnet- damm good point, can you imagine if the leafs were a succesful team? they are everywhere as it is. when they are at least in the playoffs you see even non hockey ppl getting excited and tuning into the games.

[ne1roc]

Here is my theory why the Leafs may never win the Stanley cup again..............fear of losing fans. As strange as that may seem, right now fans live on hope and keep on supporting. Will the fans be satisfied once the Leafs win the cup and move on to other things? It seems to happen with all teams.......look at the Jays for example. You couldn't get a seat at the Skydome but after the second championship, attendance droped off big time.

The owners aren't rich for no reason, they are very smart.

[Paul]

I've read similar arguments before and it doesn't make business sense. All home games in the playoffs are complete profit as the players are not paid for the extra games. Successful playoff runs generate a merchandising bonanza (you couldn't find an Oilers jersey to buy during their cup run). The extra interest and excitement draws more viewers which translates into increased advertising and coverage revenues. Yes, the Leafs enjoy an insane amount of popularity, viewership, and merchandising, but a good team would produce even more. The OTP would not risk its investment through hurting the team.

All of the "run for mere profit" arguments overlook the Leaf's past spending excesses, forget how close they (twice) came to making it to the cup in the 1990s (with very good and expensive teams), and simply don't make sense. If anything, the Ballard years are more indicative of a "run for mere profit" interpretation: John Kordic for Rus$ Courtnal anyone :eek:

TG

The Leafs are a good team. What they haven't been in the past 25 years is a great team.

The OTPP only came on board as an invester in MLSE when the team was taken private. That's only 10 or 15 years ago, about the time Doug Gilmore was kissing Don Cherry. I agree that making the playoffs is pure cash in pocket, as the player payroll is zero. But buying all of the players necessary to probably win a cup, that's a lot of cash that a management team doesn't seem willing to spend. And now with the salary cap system, they can't.

[Wayward Son]

Not to change the topic but I think the leafs have a curse.I think if Bob Cole wasn't calling the games they would win more often......and I might watch more. He drives me up the wall.

[fraser]

a thought just occured to me, and its an argument ive made a few times this year already- at this point in the game it is 2-2, the leafs outshooting 20-10.
that tells me the 5 leafs skaters are only allowing half the opportunities that montreal is- yet the montreal goalie is able to stop 18 shots while that second stringer in the leafs net can only stop 8- this is a common theme with these guys- an argument could be made for better shooters, but
i say its time to bring pogge up-

[fraser]

lol wayward- bob cole- yu might be onto something

[Ophidian]

I can't stand Bob Cole. CBC should have fired him 20 years ago.

How about the zamboni driver tonight before the shootout. I think he was trying to help the Habs win.

[Paul]

How about the zamboni driver tonight before the shootout. I think he was trying to help the Habs win.

Ok, we all know that Leafs fans are the most conspiracy minded bunch on the planet, but blaming the Zamboni driver for the loss in what was a T.O. home game??????

I prefer to thing of the Leafs like Schrödinger's cat.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat)

If you pay no attention, and don't know the score, there's a 50% chance the Leafs are winning. (Which I think is better odds than real life.)

[Ophidian]

Yes it was a TO home game. It took the zamboni about 15 min the get it right and both the Leafs and Habs were shaking thier heads.

[Robert1950]

i watch the leafs

You have my condolences.

[fraser]

yes that zamboni thing was messed up lol. it was almost a repeat of last year, at montreal- remember?
i really hate shootouts. stupid concept- i believe they instituted them to appease american sensibilities
thank you robert, i appreciate your condolences:smile:

[LowWatt]

Leafs facts :
- Tied for fewest wins in the NHL and tied for most games played. This makes them the worst team in the league
- Scotty Bowman refused the job this summer because the board of directors and upper management still want some say in personel decisions. This is why no qualified GM/President will consider coming here.
- The team only acquires one of 4 types of players :
1. Aging veteran who was a star, but is steadily declining (Blake, Allison, Lindros)
2. Player in their prime that has taken a step back (Kubina, M. Bell, Raycroft)
3. Backup goalie who people believe could be a starter (Raycroft, Toskala)
4. Career minor leaguer or bubble player who shows tonnes of grit (Battaglia, Kilger, Deveraux)

Notice that there are no blue chip prospects, draft picks, or star level players in their prime in there.

Sundin is still head and shoulders above everyone on the team and he is at the end of the line. It's a testament to how good Sundin is, but it also shows how weak the team is

Forwards - mainly a bunch of 3rd and 4th liners
Defense - mainly offensive-minded, defensive liability 5th and 6th defensman
Goalies - backups, not as bad as they have looked with the horrid defense, but they will not steal you the occasional game like a good starter should.

I am a life long Leafs fan. I can't watch anymore because I want them to lose and embarass themselves to the point that they realize that Toronto WILL accept a rebuild project as long as we have faith in the people rebuilding. Philly did it. Chicago did it. I would love to be watching either of those teams right now.

[Vincent]

Im a leafs fan however sometimes i think they just dont want to win the cup...if you look at teams in the recent past like detroit and Jersey attendence has dropped off and i guess you could say that the fans are spoiled even though i kind of blame the lost season for that...fans just didnt come back.

If I had control of the leafs i would of traded sundin years ago...I think hes a good player and deserves to stay however why stay with a leader/captain that cant get the job done.

I would also trade belak,steen,tucker,gill and a few others to start...only reason I would trade tucker is because hes not the player he was a few years ago...time to trade...not sure what they are waiting for.

[fraser]

well sundin is certainly at the end- but then who will be captain? i can think of nobody- i mean the assistants are kaberle- who is rather non vocal, apparently silent in the dressing room-mccabe, who has too many flaws in his game and is unpopular to the public, and tucker-
tucker maybe- but i dont see it somehow. the captain needs to lead by example and we dont need a team full of tuckers. he is great imo- but a team full of tuckers wont win cups lol.
belak is disposable sure- if bell can fight, hes willing but hasnt proved it yet. if not then we have no fighter.
steen is sub-par, and id be happy to see him go-
gill has his moments, and hes big, but ya he is nothing special.
tucker wont go anywhere i think- the public likes him, ill wager he ends his career here.

[DUCK]

WOW get the parade route drawn up, they have wone 2 in a row!!! JK

Been a leafs fan for about 16 years now, have seen alot of good players come and go. Not a fan of either Tucker or McCabe (4+ million a year with a no trade clause, definately bad signings) IMO. Best player has to be Sundin, now he is a TRUE LEAF, any other player with his skill would have asked to be shipped out long ago!

I try to keep the faith but until they do some major front office changes I think we can expect to see the same leaf team and outcome for quite some time!

[DUCK]

4 in a row, nice to finally see them playing as a team and Toskala is definately on top of his game!!!:banana:

[fraser]

yup duck 4 in a row, then a bit of a lapse with boston- boston plays a strange nuetral zone game, and we werent up for it- lets see what happens with tampa bay. tampa bay lol- what kind of place is tampa bay fer a hockey team?

[LowWatt]

4 in a row, nice to finally see them playing as a team and Toskala is definately on top of his game!!!:banana:

As a leafs fan I 've been hating this winning streak. I don't want the pricks in upper management convincing themselves that there is nothing wrong with the team and that maybe they can turn things around with one more acquisition at the expense of the future.

[DUCK]

I am totally with u on that LowWatt, but at least if the bottom falls out now we had 1 bright spot during this entire season!:food-smiley-004:

[fraser]

yah lowwatt- that makes sense. you guys notice how most of the talk of firings has dissappeared? what a strange market. got to be a lot of pressure on that team lol.
im liking maurice - that guy is consistant- he has the same attitude wether theyre winning or losing, always acts the same, says the same things.
after those 4 wins we still only in like 21st place out of 30- geez

[skydigger]

I've been following the leafs for 30 years. if they lose a game now I'm pretty much immune to the usual depression that used to hit me after a loss.

Now I simply enjoy HNIC and pray for the best outcome.

[Ophidian]

I rather have Moscow Dynamo win the cup than Toronto.

[laristotle]

Anyone remember Red Kelly's 'Pyramid Power' theory?http://www.giveupalready.com/images/smilies/smilies/loser2.gif