Found My Stolen Amp - Now What?

[david henman]

...a fender hot rod deluxe that was stolen from my office in the mid-nineties has turned up on craiglist.

i'm checking to see if it was included in the original police report. it was stolen from my former office along with computer equipment - i'm checking now with my former employer. turns out no police report was filed. so, all i have is the original receipt, which proves nothing.

i didn't file an insurance claim because the $500 deductible plus depreciation would have rendered any claim moot.

a local musician bought it from a pawn shop in kensington market. the poor girl is trying to sell it so she can pay her rent.

mainly all i want to do is the right thing, but it seems to me there may be an opportunity here to follow a trail right back to the thieves.

as well, if it is shown that the amp is stolen (i'm trying to track down my serial number/receipt etc), can this girl get her money back from the pawn shop?

-dh

[Hamm Guitars]

I've had to deal with finding stolen gear in a pawn shop. I was suprised to find out that you actually have to pay for it to get it back as there is a law that protects pawn shop owners inthis way.

If she has a reciept from the pawn shop, they do have to keep records though so you might be able to track them down that way.

[iaresee]

...a fender hot rod deluxe that was stolen from my office in the mid-nineties has turned up on craiglist.
Out of curiosity: how do you know it was yours? Is it this one (http://toronto.craigslist.org/msg/371520096.html)?

[zdogma]

I don't know if its worth the time at this stage. Its probably been through several owners, and I doubt that the police would take much interest...

[peter benn]

David, I'd have to agree with zdogma. You're going to have to pay a lawyer $1500 just to get started on this, and you can buy it back cheaper.

FWIW, I lost a butchered '54 Pre in a storage locker robbery in the early '90's (replaced padlock) and I had no insurance and a pencil-written police report at Dundas and Medland. If I ever saw that bass again I'd think I was lucky for the chance to buy it back.

A HRD is not a rare amp.

Peter

[Stratin2traynor]

Although it is tempting to want to track the thief who pawned it, it is not worth the time and effort. You likely won't be able to. And if you do find him, what are you going to do? I agree that the police won't be interested and basically it would be an exercise in frustration. The girl unwittingly bought a stolen amp, can't really say it's her fault.

But....if you do happen to track down the thief, kick him in the nuts for me!! :banana: I can't stand thieves of any kind.

[mario]

This is a crappy situation for both of you. I guess I would let the girl keep the amp considering she bought it honestly. But I would certainly have the police in it solely to try the find the people that ripped you off. And what the hell...make a stink with the pawnshop. If they are decent business people, they would do the right thing and give the girl her money back and you your amp. Good luck!

[david henman]

Out of curiosity: how do you know it was yours? Is it this one (http://toronto.craigslist.org/msg/371520096.html)?

...that's the one. i will probably track down the serial number this week, for posterity, but the identifier was a small, round hole about the size of a nickle, in the bottom right hand corner of the grill cloth. she bought it from a pawn shop in kensington market.

unfortunately, i have no proof that it was stolen, so i told her to go ahead and sell it, as she desparately needs the money to pay her rent.

it seemed like the right thing to do. if i really wanted the amp, i could have arranged to buy it from her and split our losses.

she was extremely good about the whole thing, and offered to cooperate completely.

however, i do have a friend on the police force looking into it, just in case there is a chance to follow the trail back to the thieves.

-dh

[iaresee]

...that's the one. i will probably track down the serial number this week, for posterity, but the identifier was a small, round hole about the size of a nickle, in the bottom right hand corner of the grill cloth. she bought it from a pawn shop in kensington market.
Wow! I've got to start making small marks on all my gear just in case. Crazy man.

That sucks. Hopefully you can find some solace in your karmic quality that's undoubtedly gone up having let her continue to sell it.

[mario]

Way to go David! It suck's about your loss but you did the right thing. :food-smiley-004:...that's the one. i will probably track down the serial number this week, for posterity, but the identifier was a small, round hole about the size of a nickle, in the bottom right hand corner of the grill cloth. she bought it from a pawn shop in kensington market.

unfortunately, i have no proof that it was stolen, so i told her to go ahead and sell it, as she desparately needs the money to pay her rent.

it seemed like the right thing to do. if i really wanted the amp, i could have arranged to buy it from her and split our losses.

she was extremely good about the whole thing, and offered to cooperate completely.

however, i do have a friend on the police force looking into it, just in case there is a chance to follow the trail back to the thieves.

-dh

[geckodog]

If that amp had been purchased at my store, you totally could have had the3 girl bring it back for a refund and the police would have got the info about the seller and you would get your amp back. But then again you did say that it was mid 90's when you lost it? And I assume the girl owned it for a number of years? hmm, maybe not, now that I think about it because of how long it was. But if it was fairly recent, within a couple years we would.

[LowWatt]

...that's the one. i will probably track down the serial number this week, for posterity, but the identifier was a small, round hole about the size of a nickle, in the bottom right hand corner of the grill cloth. she bought it from a pawn shop in kensington market.

-dh

When you say Pawn Shop in Kensington Market, do you mean Paul's Boutique? If so, I'm pretty sure it's been the same guys running it from the get go and they've always been good people. At the very least, you should go in and talk to them to see if there is anything that you can find out.

[david henman]

When you say Pawn Shop in Kensington Market, do you mean Paul's Boutique? If so, I'm pretty sure it's been the same guys running it from the get go and they've always been good people. At the very least, you should go in and talk to them to see if there is anything that you can find out.

...good idea. it might be interesting to find out who he bought it from, and see if there is any kind of trail. i'm long overdue for a visit to that store.

its difficult to get inspired, however. it was stolen in scarborough, likely by some petty thieves who, by now, are no doubt pushing up dandelions.

-dh

[M_A_T_T]

I've had to deal with finding stolen gear in a pawn shop. I was suprised to find out that you actually have to pay for it to get it back as there is a law that protects pawn shop owners inthis way.


Are you serious? I don't really buy that. It's the pawnshops fault for buying stolen gear, who are then in posession of stolen property. I always thought with a proper police report and proper ID of the item you got back.....

[Rhythmeister]

Sorry, David, but I think you have nothing.

No police report = officially the amp was not stolen. No insurance claim serves to reinforce that.

The amp was stolen over 10 years ago by people who stole other non-music goods. They probable flipped it pronto over a decade ago. Everyone else who has owned it since probably gave good value for it and had no way to know it was ever a stolen item (because no official record exists of the theft).

Certainly the girl (assuming she didn't steal it and she paid a fair price for the amp) has good title to the amp even if it was stolen from you.

Seems like a frustrating dead-end for you.

Cheers,
Blair

[david henman]

Sorry, David, but I think you have nothing.
No police report = officially the amp was not stolen. No insurance claim serves to reinforce that.
The amp was stolen over 10 years ago by people who stole other non-music goods. They probable flipped it pronto over a decade ago. Everyone else who has owned it since probably gave good value for it and had no way to know it was ever a stolen item (because no official record exists of the theft).
Certainly the girl (assuming she didn't steal it and she paid a fair price for the amp) has good title to the amp even if it was stolen from you.
Seems like a frustrating dead-end for you.
Cheers,
Blair


...yeah, i pretty much resigned myself early on. it might be worth pursuing were it not for the fact that my traynor combo is far superior to the hrd. my other hope was that some backtracking might be possible, in order to identify the thieves, but they are probably dead from drug overdoses or gang-shootings anyway.

-dh

[Wild Bill]

I dunno about all the legalities and I can't argue with others that have more experience.

All I can add is a story given to me from Randall Hill who worked the counter of the old Guitar Clinic in Hamilton. They kept a logbook "hot list". It went back for years and years. He told me that someone had brought in a guitar that looked like one a friend had described that had been stolen nearly 20 years earlier. He checked the list and sure enough it was the same guitar!

Randall went into the back and called the "pawn shop officer", an actual position on the Hamilton force. Then he stalled the young owner until the fuzz arrived. It turned out the guitar had been through many hands over the years and he had bought it without a clue it had once been stolen.

Anyhow, the point is that the guitar was returned to the rightful owner! The Guitar Clinic wasn't out any money 'cuz they hadn't given out any. They sold used stuff on a consignment basis. Still, they had to operate under the Pawn Shop Act and apparently it's in a shop's interest to keep "hot lists" 'cuz if property is found to be stolen it goes back to the owner and the store is beat for the money!

The poor guy who had brought the guitar into the Guitar Clinic was not charged with possessing stolen property 'cuz it was obvious he had bought it in good faith and the cop wasn't that much of a PR. Still, he was out the money he had paid for the guitar. Randall's understanding is that each new owner would have to sue the guy he had bought from, all the way back to the original thief. Usually of course, that's just not possible.

It's too bad the guy on the end of the chain lost his money but what's the alternative? The original owner gets screwed? He was the original victim!

No one could tell me what happens if the original owner had received an insurance settlement. Would he have to pay the insurance company back?

In these kinds of discussions we really need a lawyer to chime in. Everybody including me has an opinion with nothing to back it up. We think because we've seen some tv law shows and we can make a logical argument that we can give good advice. Me, I learned long ago that often the Law has little or no logic behind it - it just IS! That's WHY we need lawyers!

Anyhow, just FYI.

:food-smiley-004:

[dwagar]

If the insurance company had paid a claim on the stolen item, it would be returned to them, not the original owner. By paying the claim, they are the 'new owner' of the item.
He could probably buy it back from them, but it may just end up at auction somewhere.

[Hamm Guitars]

This law must have changed since then Bill,

About five years ago we had some PA gear that was stollen from a van that showed up in a Hamilton pawn shop. We notified the cops and were directed to the pawn shop officer. In the end, the law protects the pawn shop owner, as to get the stuff back we had to pay what he had paid out for it - in essence we had to buy the gear back. The price on buying some of the stuff back just didn't make sense, so we only bought back the stuff that was a 'good deal'.

Not sure if anything ever became of the theif, but we never received any money for the damage to the van as a result of them breaking into it.

In the end, the we were out both the money for the gear, had to replace stuff that was 'overpriced' with new gear and replace a window in the van.

I would rather deal with thieves myself, then let the cops deal with it. My way is far more effective as it offers a better deterent.



I dunno about all the legalities and I can't argue with others that have more experience.

All I can add is a story given to me from Randall Hill who worked the counter of the old Guitar Clinic in Hamilton. They kept a logbook "hot list". It went back for years and years. He told me that someone had brought in a guitar that looked like one a friend had described that had been stolen nearly 20 years earlier. He checked the list and sure enough it was the same guitar!

Randall went into the back and called the "pawn shop officer", an actual position on the Hamilton force. Then he stalled the young owner until the fuzz arrived. It turned out the guitar had been through many hands over the years and he had bought it without a clue it had once been stolen.

Anyhow, the point is that the guitar was returned to the rightful owner! The Guitar Clinic wasn't out any money 'cuz they hadn't given out any. They sold used stuff on a consignment basis. Still, they had to operate under the Pawn Shop Act and apparently it's in a shop's interest to keep "hot lists" 'cuz if property is found to be stolen it goes back to the owner and the store is beat for the money!

The poor guy who had brought the guitar into the Guitar Clinic was not charged with possessing stolen property 'cuz it was obvious he had bought it in good faith and the cop wasn't that much of a PR. Still, he was out the money he had paid for the guitar. Randall's understanding is that each new owner would have to sue the guy he had bought from, all the way back to the original thief. Usually of course, that's just not possible.

It's too bad the guy on the end of the chain lost his money but what's the alternative? The original owner gets screwed? He was the original victim!

No one could tell me what happens if the original owner had received an insurance settlement. Would he have to pay the insurance company back?

In these kinds of discussions we really need a lawyer to chime in. Everybody including me has an opinion with nothing to back it up. We think because we've seen some tv law shows and we can make a logical argument that we can give good advice. Me, I learned long ago that often the Law has little or no logic behind it - it just IS! That's WHY we need lawyers!

Anyhow, just FYI.

:food-smiley-004:

[Wild Bill]

This law must have changed since then Bill,

About five years ago we had some PA gear that was stollen from a van that showed up in a Hamilton pawn shop. We notified the cops and were directed to the pawn shop officer. In the end, the law protects the pawn shop owner, as to get the stuff back we had to pay what he had paid out for it - in essence we had to buy the gear back. The price on buying some of the stuff back just didn't make sense, so we only bought back the stuff that was a 'good deal'.

Not sure if anything ever became of the theif, but we never received any money for the damage to the van as a result of them breaking into it.

In the end, the we were out both the money for the gear, had to replace stuff that was 'overpriced' with new gear and replace a window in the van.

I would rather deal with thieves myself, then let the cops deal with it. My way is far more effective as it offers a better deterent.

You know, I wish we had some lawyer/musicians :eek: on this board! I've learned the hard way that what the law says and how Hamilton's finest apply and enforce it are often two quite different things. My insurance company and my lawyer swore that the law read one way and that the cops had to enforce it and it didn't mean squat when push came to shove.

I would love to see the chapter and verse. For me, to just take a cop's word in such cases would not be at all logical, by clear precedent of experience.

Maybe someone can chime in...

:food-smiley-004:

[Rhythmeister]

You know, I wish we had some lawyer/musicians :eek: on this board! I've learned the hard way that what the law says and how Hamilton's finest apply and enforce it are often two quite different things. My insurance company and my lawyer swore that the law read one way and that the cops had to enforce it and it didn't mean squat when push came to shove.

I would love to see the chapter and verse. For me, to just take a cop's word in such cases would not be at all logical, by clear precedent of experience.

Maybe someone can chime in...

:food-smiley-004:


Hi Bill,

I am a lawyer musician (I am called the Bar of BC - not Ontario). The reason my earlier post referred to the chain of owners "giving value" for the item and not "having notice" of it being stolen because David did not file any report of any kind is the legal principle of "bona fide purchaser for value without notice" ("BFPFVWN").

The definition is here from Wikpedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_purchaser

But the basics of it are that if property passes to you, and you give good value for it and have no knowledge or way to know that it is stolen, then you acquire good title to the property. The person it was stolen from can't just come and take it back from you. Now if you paid $25 for the Fender HRD, you might be deemed to have constructive knowledge that it was stolen (you ought to have known from the price). Then you are likely not protected by BFPFVWN.

Two things I can't comment on are: (1) whether Ontario has any statutes that would affect the operation of BFPFVWN, and (2) whether pawn shop owners have special duties and protections afforded to them by statutes.

Cheers,
Blair

[Wild Bill]

Hi Bill,

I am a lawyer musician (I am called the Bar of BC - not Ontario). The reason my earlier post referred to the chain of owners "giving value" for the item and not "having notice" of it being stolen because David did not file any report of any kind is the legal principle of "bona fide purchaser for value without notice" ("BFPFVWN").

The definition is here from Wikpedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_purchaser

But the basics of it are that if property passes to you, and you give good value for it and have no knowledge or way to know that it is stolen, then you acquire good title to the property. The person it was stolen from can't just come and take it back from you. Now if you paid $25 for the Fender HRD, you might be deemed to have constructive knowledge that it was stolen (you ought to have known from the price). Then you are likely not protected by BFPFVWN.

Two things I can't comment on are: (1) whether Ontario has any statutes that would affect the operation of BFPFVWN, and (2) whether pawn shop owners have special duties and protections afforded to them by statutes.

Cheers,
Blair

Thanks Blair!

You've given a professional perspective. Now I understand how the law works, in truth and practice. I understand how if no report was filed then of course it would be impractical if not impossible for a subsequent buyer to know it was stolen.

Would it be correct to assume that if a report HAD been filed the situation is different? In my example the local store was supplied with a "hot list". I don't know if this list was compiled and distributed by the local police or if the store just accepted reports from those "ripped off" and kept that info on file.

I would assume the law must have some kind of check and balance as regards to pawn shops. Otherwise they would be a totally valid channel for hot goods, with no incentive whatsoever to question the source of the pawned goods.

Not to mention negating any value in those "etch your possessions" drives the cops promote from time to time.

You did mention that you could not comment on the statute situation in Ontario but perhaps there's some general convention from our heritage of British Common Law.

Could and would you be so kind as offer a bit more "education"?

:food-smiley-004:

[Rhythmeister]

Thanks Blair!

Would it be correct to assume that if a report HAD been filed the situation is different? In my example the local store was supplied with a "hot list". I don't know if this list was compiled and distributed by the local police or if the store just accepted reports from those "ripped off" and kept that info on file.

I would assume the law must have some kind of check and balance as regards to pawn shops. Otherwise they would be a totally valid channel for hot goods, with no incentive whatsoever to question the source of the pawned goods.

Not to mention negating any value in those "etch your possessions" drives the cops promote from time to time.

You did mention that you could not comment on the statute situation in Ontario but perhaps there's some general convention from our heritage of British Common Law.

Could and would you be so kind as offer a bit more "education"?

:food-smiley-004:

Hi Bill,

I'm happy to help out with what I can. But this is not the area where I usually practice, so my knowledge is really of the general principles. If anyone has a specific question they send via PM or e-mail, I'll try to help out.

The "BFPFVWN" principle comes from our heritage of British common law (and equity). So what I don't know is whether the legislature in Ontario has chosen to modify that in any way through statutory enactment.

I'm sure you are right - I suspect strongly that pawn shops have some sort of tight controls imposed upon them, but I've never had occasion to look into that (and I hope I won't have to on a personal level...I like my stuff and want to keep it mine :smile:)

It is really tough to give answers with any degree of certainty in this area, but I think it is fair to say things *might* have been different if a police report was filed. In such a case, at least the innocent victim has a leg to stand on to say he gave the world "notice". Also, at some point in the flow of the goods through the pawn shop, it seems more likely the theft would have been noted if a police report was filed.

It is a funny thing that when we buy a car, it is always prudent to do a title search to make sure the seller is the registered owner. But when we buy an $800 Stratocaster off Craig's List, how many of us check with the police to ensure it was not reported stolen? I confess that I don't do that much research either...

Cheers,

Blair

[KHINGPYNN]

David... I believe you did what was right and what was legally your right. Good on ya bro and if the true thiefs can be caught then great.

Khing