Opinions Wanted - Power

[RIFF WRATH]

OK
so now I have this big old Yamaha Mixer, 12 channels, but nothing to drive it, and 2 150 W speakers that go into my 150W 4 channel mixer.
I'm thinking: use the 150W off the Yamaha to drive the 2 150W speakers as they were intended-1 per channel as stage monitors (L&R)?
I just got back from L&M with all sorts of ideas and they are all expensive.
Could buy a power amp and 2 , passive speakers for FOH?
or buy 2 powered speakers and run them right off the Yamaha? In the long run that would be the way to go I think. Any thoughts?
Also, what Wattage would I need for FOH speakers for say an outside venue with an audience of 50, or say a small club setting? 200W was suggested?
Help
cheers
RIFF WRATH

[Hamm Guitars]

For a small setup, powered speakers on a pair of stands are a great idea. They are usually frequency compensated, so they sound relitivly smooth, and they usuually contain a limiter or compression circuit to protect the drivers.

The cost of going with seperate boxes, amp and a comp/limiter will probably set you back about the same amount. I would expect that you are looking at around $1500.00 CDN for a pair of twelve and horns, and probably around $1700.00 for 15 and horns. You can just run a balanced line out of your mixer into these and you are ready to go.

Otherwise, you will need cabinets, and amp, a comp/limiter and the cabling/rack to put it all together in a nice neat package. A used AP3000 or QSC MX-1500 will cost you around $600.00, a cheap new comp/limiter (Behringer) about $125.00. This would leave you around $800.00 or so to find used cabinets and cabling to match the price of the powered twelve setup.

You will want an EQ for the fronts (and monitors if you plan to add them) regardless of which route you plan to go with.

The powered speakers are lighter, easier to manage (transport, set up etc.) and are more or less taylored to the band/performer that sets up their own gear and mixes from stage. The cost of a new pair, is about the same price as a half decent used component system.

[Paul]

OK
so now I have this big old Yamaha Mixer, 12 channels, but nothing to drive it, and 2 150 W speakers that go into my 150W 4 channel mixer.
I'm thinking: use the 150W off the Yamaha to drive the 2 150W speakers as they were intended-1 per channel as stage monitors (L&R)?
I just got back from L&M with all sorts of ideas and they are all expensive.
Could buy a power amp and 2 , passive speakers for FOH?
or buy 2 powered speakers and run them right off the Yamaha? In the long run that would be the way to go I think. Any thoughts?
Also, what Wattage would I need for FOH speakers for say an outside venue with an audience of 50, or say a small club setting? 200W was suggested?
Help
cheers
RIFF WRATH

Yes, you can buy a 2 channel power amp, (or two single channel power amps) and some passive speakers.

You could also buy powered speakers. I like powered speakers because, (assuming you buy something decent), there is an expectation that the power amp(s), crossover(s) and speakers are engineered to work together correctly. You don't need to do a lot of guesswork.

I don't like powered speakers because you now need to run both a balanced audio signal, AND A/C power to both speakers.

How big a band and what kind of material are you trying to put out there? The needs of a 5 piece power rock band are much different from an acoustic jazz trio.

[RIFF WRATH]

This set up would be for a rock band.
I am leaning towards 2 powered speakers but still unsure of Wattage.
thanks
RIFF

[Paul]

This set up would be for a rock band.
I am leaning towards 2 powered speakers but still unsure of Wattage.
thanks
RIFF


Q.1 What's the line up in the rock band? Four piece? Five piece? Ten piece?

Q.2 How big a room do you intend to play? (oops, I see you answered that in your original post....my other questions are still valid)

Q.3 Do you intend to run the full band, (gtr(s), keys, vox, horns, bass & drums, etc.) through the PA, or just vox and acoustic instruments?

Q.4 Is it for performances, or just a rehearsal system for a hobby garage band? (oops, I see you answered that in your original post....my other questions are still valid)


Here's a thread for what Milkman uses for a 4 piece band, everything through the PA:

http://guitarscanada.com/Board/showthread.php?t=2310


Until we know how big the nail is, we can't really tell you what size hammer to buy.

[RIFF WRATH]

Paul et al:I am really out of my league here, especially after re-reviewing the Milkman thread.

Potentially we are looking at say 4 vocal mikes through Yamaha and to the 150W mixer for monitors.
Accoustic guitars would be miked to Yamaha. Electric accoustic through 10 to 15W ss and then miked.
Guitars would probably be through the amps which, for the ss amps are 150 to 200W. Bass through either 50W tube Traynor Bass amp or 200W Yorkie Bass amp ss (should be plenty loud).
Have a couple of tube amps, 15W and 20W that, to be honest, I have never heard driven at full volume. Perhaps they would require miking through the Yamaha ?
Have a 60W keyboard that needs to go through the Yamaha for amplification (rated at 60W) (currently through 60W modified 1 input amp and single 2X12+6"horn column)
On another thread it was suggested probably wouldn't need to mike drums for current situation.
This set up works fine in my partially insulated 24'X24' tin driving shed with just the 150W powered mixer and 2 150W passive speakers, with out anything "cranked" Sound loud enough outside the building (and according to my neighbours 1 mile away-LOL-with the right wind.)
Have never heard this current set up outside of the shed, but have a feeling I "need" more than say 2-200W powered speakers for the Board.Perhaps 2-500W?
does any of this help?
thanks
RIFF

[buckaroobanzai]

The friendly folks at Angus Audio here in Cambridge have some stuff that might fit the bill -

http://www.angusaudio.com/used_products/masterlist_001.html

The Electro-Voice Eliminator 15's look good if you don't mind used gear ( their used stuff is in good shape and comes with warranty)

I've always preferred dealing with them for PA rather than music stores

[david henman]

...bang for buck power?

tapco juice series at steve's music.

just buy the most watts you can afford.

-dh

[RIFF WRATH]

Thanks for the info.

Buck
that cambridge link is worth saving.

cheers
Riff

[Milkman]

I guess different people will have different needs and standards in terms of power, but outdoor gigs generally require more power than indoor gigs in my experience.

The bottom line is that you should get as much power as you can afford.

Having too much power (providing you have the sense to know when to reign it in) is like having too much money (inconceivable).

200 watts is really not adequate for any gig in my opinion, but again, that IS only my opinion. You really can't think in terms of the power rating of guitar or bass amps when looking at PA systems. I use very low powered guitar amps (when I use them at all) but I throw as much power as I can get at the PA.

[Wayward Son]

I agree with Milkman on the front end power thing.
It sounds like you guys are just starting out, if so try and plan ahead a bit with gear you buy.
In your position a couple of powered 2-way speakers on a good set of stands might be enough to get you started for smaller gigs. But keep in mind these may be the start of a larger PA, something you could throw a set of bass bins under later as money allows.
I would concentrate on getting the vocals sounding good and not worry about drum and guitar mikes just yet. You might want to consider a small effects unit or something you can add a bit of reverb to the vocals as well.
If your using some smaller combo amps, get them up off the floor a few feet. You'll hear each other better on stage and might keep the guys from "volume wars" as the night goes on.

[RIFF WRATH]

welcome Wayward Son.
all advise greatfully appreciated........I put off shopping for speakers/PA Amps for this season. what I do have works for now. spend needless, silly $ on amps and axes...as well as most of the summer literally with an axe chopping firewood...am still watching the local buy & sells.
(I reaaly like the fact that these threads are still on the site,)
cheers
RIFF

[Wayward Son]

Guess I should pay attention to the dates on top of these posts eh!
It's interesting to go through these posts and see what others are up too anyways.

[suttree]

as a VERY rough rule of thumb, 4 watts per person indoors, and i would almost double that outside. if you get powered speakers, try and get a kickback box, so that when you upgrade, they can become your floor monitors. I strongly prefer the EV SXA series, great sound for the competetive price. the JBL EONs are easy to find, and the later models absolutely POUND for the money, but they're not as sweet sounding as the EV's. If you're inexperienced, i'd pretty much suggest you stick with active speakers. the EV eliminators are great, but do be aware that the earlier models didn't include any protection circuit, and were relatively easy to shred. better late than never, lol

[Hamm Guitars]

...the JBL EONs are easy to find, and the later models absolutely POUND for the money...

JBL = 'Junk but Loud' :smilie_flagge17:

[Paul]

JBL = 'Junk but Loud' :smilie_flagge17:

I'm of the same opinion for Wharfedale, at least the ones I've heard.

[Hamm Guitars]

I'm really not banging on JBL's, but if your name is made up of three letters than soonor or later you get a label that you don't like.

There was a sound company in the Toronto area (a pretty good one at that) that had some technical probalems at a gig and their name was BCB - ever since then I've heard people refer to them as 'Buzz, Constant Buzz". This is going back ten or fifteen years now and I still think of it every time I hear their name.

[Paul]

I'm really not banging on JBL's, but if your name is made up of three letters than soonor or later you get a label that you don't like.

There was a sound company in the Toronto area (a pretty good one at that) that had some technical probalems at a gig and their name was BCB - ever since then I've heard people refer to them as 'Buzz, Constant Buzz". This is going back ten or fifteen years now and I still think of it every time I hear their name.

Acronyms are fun:smile::

Had One, Never Did Again

Drips Oil, Drops Grease Everywhere

Please Leave Your Money Order Under The Hood.

And my favorite:

Poor Old Neanderthal, Thinks It's A Cadillac

[Milkman]

as a VERY rough rule of thumb, 4 watts per person indoors, and i would almost double that outside. if you get powered speakers, try and get a kickback box, so that when you upgrade, they can become your floor monitors. I strongly prefer the EV SXA series, great sound for the competetive price. the JBL EONs are easy to find, and the later models absolutely POUND for the money, but they're not as sweet sounding as the EV's. If you're inexperienced, i'd pretty much suggest you stick with active speakers. the EV eliminators are great, but do be aware that the earlier models didn't include any protection circuit, and were relatively easy to shred. better late than never, lol

I'd say more like 20 ~ 40 watts per person. 2000 watts for 100 people is less than I use. Again though I akcnowledge that it depends on what you expect from your PA.