Need Some Advice on Pedals

[BloodBrotherXxX]

I'm pretty new to this pedal stuff. Right now I'm using a multi-effects processor, a Digitech Rp 150. I think it's great. I was wondering if it is better to have multi-effects processor or individual pedals? I guess it depends on the quality, I know that some of the effects on my pedal sound simulated. Please give feedback and any suggestions.

[Milkman]

LOL, how much money do you have?

You can get better multi effects units for a couple of hundred $ more, but if you go with individual pedals you can be into $1000 and more to get anywhere near the variety you get with your present unit.

Does a $200. Keeley compressor sound better than the one in a typical multi effects unit? A little. Does an $100+ tube screamer sound better than the one in your unit? Not much.

Personally I've gone both routes and now I use a Vox Tonelab LE, which is more than just an effects unit. It actually replaces the amp as well. In terms of flexibility, simplicity, overall sound as well as cost effectiveness I'm very happy with it.

Multi effects units are great bang for the buck and have definite advantages IMO.

[EL34POWER]

It depends on what you want as effects. I have only drive and wah in my set up so. I use an MI audio Tube Zone for my main sound, A tone Facor or Catalinbread silver Kiss for solo boosting. If i where to need reverb, delay, chorus....and all that maybe i would use a rack for the swirl and time, but still keep the drive in pedals

[violation]

I've tried plenty of multi-effects and I've always prefered singles. Yeah, they're more expensive... but who cares? I'd rather get something I'm going to like instead of settling for something cheaper... they sound much more natural. Listening to digital overdrive / distortion tones makes me want to cry.

The only thing multi-effects are good for are home recording as far as I'm concerned... like a PODxt for example. Even then, I just bought a cheap mixer, plugged it into the PC, got an SM57 and mic'd the amp.

As for what pedals you'll need... it's up to the tone(s) you want. I use a MXR Wylde Overdrive to push the tubes, Boss CE-5 Chorus (soon to be replaced by a MXR Stereo Chorus) is always on to fatten up the tone, Dunlop Wylde Wah as a treble boost for some solos, MXR EVH Phase 90 for the occasional solo for a nice effect, Boss TU-2 for when I've tuning after putting new strings on and Boss GE-7 to shape my tone (soon to be gone, buying a KFK 10 band). Sometimes I'll turn a little reverb on the amp, the footswitch for the amp can turn it on and off so sometimes I use a bit on solos.

[Milkman]

I've tried plenty of multi-effects and I've always prefered singles. Yeah, they're more expensive... but who cares? I'd rather get something I'm going to like instead of settling for something cheaper... they sound much more natural. Listening to digital overdrive / distortion tones makes me want to cry.

The only thing multi-effects are good for are home recording as far as I'm concerned... like a PODxt for example. Even then, I just bought a cheap mixer, plugged it into the PC, got an SM57 and mic'd the amp.

As for what pedals you'll need... it's up to the tone(s) you want. I use a MXR Wylde Overdrive to push the tubes, Boss CE-5 Chorus (soon to be replaced by a MXR Stereo Chorus) is always on to fatten up the tone, Dunlop Wylde Wah as a treble boost for some solos, MXR EVH Phase 90 for the occasional solo for a nice effect, Boss TU-2 for when I've tuning after putting new strings on and Boss GE-7 to shape my tone (soon to be gone, buying a KFK 10 band). Sometimes I'll turn a little reverb on the amp, the footswitch for the amp can turn it on and off so sometimes I use a bit on solos.


Opinions will vary for sure.

I had a pedalboard with a bunch of true bypass boutique level pedals running into a tube amp and frankly the only people who were impressed were a few guitarists and only when they took a look.

As far as sound goes, and particularly in terms of FOH sound, the money would be better spent elsewhere IMO.

[Milkman]

As you say, opinions will vary. In the past few years, I've upped the quality of my pedals and amp(s) fairly significantly, and its only after doing that that I have started to get a lot of compliments about my tone. Most of the compliments actually come from non-musicians - usually along the lines of "Wow, what kind of guitar is that? It sounds great!"



Well I went with a good basic tube amp (Traynor YCV40 and YCX12 cab) and some very good pedals (Keeley comp, Catilinbread SC OD, Visual sound Chorus/echo and a true bypass crybaby). Now I'll not deny that throwing another $3000 or more at a high end tube amp would result in an incremental improvement in my sound, but the improvement I hear with the Tonelab LE is more than incremental, it's night and day.

I do believe much of a player's sound is in his hands, but well, I just reduced the cost of my rig by....oh, say 75% and came out with a sound that is miles ahead. Also I reduced my set up time, weight and space to transport, and space needed on stage.

For me it's a no-brainer (don't take that as an insult please. I can only judge my own situation)


I think you should have a guitar, amp and pedals that you love the sound of and that inspire you to play. Whether that's a Squire strat into a POD or an R9 into a Dumble doesn't matter. If it inspires you to play, it's a good rig. If not, it ain't.

Again, I agree, but I think in many cases we as guitarists don't give enough thought to the sound of the band as a whole.

[violation]

JSX + single effects of your choice = blowing away most... hell, I'll say ANY multi-effect units out there. The JSX can handle any genre you throw at it and handle it well.

Multi-effects should also be known as settling... you're settling because you can't afford all seperate pedals and amps, correct?

Okay, so say they based an amp model on a Mesa Dual Rec. You think the multi-effect unit is going to sound just as good? No, otherwise Mesa wouldn't be in business. There's a reason all-tube amps cost more and multi-effects cost less and it's not 'cause they're smaller or weigh less!

Only advantages of a multi-effect unit is the space/weight and the price. But is settling for a digital tone worth it? If you ask me, no. A bunch of people around here play with that digital crap (even digital single effect distortion pedals)... as soon as I hear it I think to myself "gross..." and leave the room. Painful to listen to.

I'll put it this way... how many pros do you know that use digital amp models? I can't think of one, and there's a reason for that!

[Milkman]

JSX + single effects of your choice = blowing away most... hell, I'll say ANY multi-effect units out there. The JSX can handle any genre you throw at it and handle it well.

Multi-effects should also be known as settling... you're settling because you can't afford all seperate pedals and amps, correct?

Okay, so say they based an amp model on a Mesa Dual Rec. You think the multi-effect unit is going to sound just as good? No, otherwise Mesa wouldn't be in business. There's a reason all-tube amps cost more and multi-effects cost less and it's not 'cause they're smaller or weigh less!

Only advantages of a multi-effect unit is the space/weight and the price. But is settling for a digital tone worth it? If you ask me, no. A bunch of people around here play with that digital crap (even digital single effect distortion pedals)... as soon as I hear it I think to myself "gross..." and leave the room. Painful to listen to.

I'll put it this way... how many pros do you know that use digital amp models? I can't think of one, and there's a reason for that!



LMAO

Funny stuff.

Settling?

Ah me.

[violation]

You're right, the truth can be funny sometimes!

[Milkman]

You're right, the truth can be funny sometimes!


Easy man. If you bothered to read the thread you'd see that I actually just switched back from a tube amp and pedalboard. Stating that the only reason I or anyone else would use a modeler or multi effects is because we can't afford anything better is pretty condescending don't you think?

I deliberately sought out the modeler because it sounds better, not because it's cheaper. The money is just a nice side effect.

You're entitled to your opinion but try not to be too unsulting about it.

[violation]

Easy man. If you bothered to read the thread you'd see that I actually just switched back from a tube amp and pedalboard. Stating that the only reason I or anyone else would wuse a modeler or multi effects is because we can't afford anything better is pretty condescending don't you think?

I deliberately sought out the modeler because it sounds better, not because it's cheaper. The money is just a nice side effect.

You're entitled to your opinion but try not to be too unsulting abut it.
Ugh, no I don't. Quality tube amp + single effects will blow any of them away. Here's an example... some gear my bud Stephen owns:

http://www.warnerve.com/gear/1.jpg

http://www.warnerve.com/gear/2.jpg

http://www.warnerve.com/images/computer.jpg

Why does he need all that when he's got a PODxt Pro?! I mean, if it sounds so good why the hell would he spend all that cash to buy the amps? Because the tube shit sounds better! He uses the Laney live and the POD to record.

Meh, I know what my ear tells me.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~yavin4/nr2_balad.mp3

There's some digital tone for you... *cuts his ears off*

[Milkman]

Ugh, no I don't. Quality tube amp + single effects will blow any of them away. Here's an example... some gear my bud Stephen owns:

Why does he need all that when he's got a PODxt Pro?! I mean, if it sounds so good why the hell would he spend all that cash to buy the amps? Because the tube shit sounds better! He uses the Laney live and the POD to record.

Meh, I know what my ear tells me.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~yavin4/nr2_balad.mp3

There's some digital tone for you... *cuts his ears off*


If your friend feels he needs that stuff, great.

Most people I know who use modelers don't use all that stuff, and quite frankly using a modeler with an amp is a bit like mic'ing your amp and running that signal into a second amp. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to imagine how that will sound.

Also most people who turn their noses up at this technology plug in with the factory presets (admittedly over effected and practically useless) and don't take the time to tweak the sounds.

Again opinions vary. Mine is based on long years of experience both live and in the studio.

If you are unable to get good sounds out of a modeler that's cool. Others can however.

I should also add that the modelers I see in those pics are NOT what I would select, and neither are the pedals he has.

[violation]

I never said they did... I'm saying he bought the modeller, wasn't happy with the digital tone and bought tube amps so it actually sounded natural.

Man has been playing 15 years and has messed with the POD for hours on end and couldn't get anything close to what his tube amps put out.

Care to share these "good sounds"? Post some clips.

The gear he chose doesn't really make a difference does it? $900 (before taxes) modeller should be able to put out some decent sounds eh?

*patiently waits for godly digital tones*

[Milkman]

I never said they did... I'm saying he bought the modeller, wasn't happy with the digital tone and bought tube amps so it actually sounded natural.

Man has been playing 15 years and has messed with the POD for hours on end and couldn't get anything close to what his tube amps put out.

Care to share these "good sounds"? Post some clips.


Well I have some links on my site that you're welcome to check out. They were recorded with the old SE I had.

As for live clips I don't have any recent ones as I just did my first gig with the new modeller.

The video clips in my site are all recorded with a tube amp and some rather expensive pedals.

What about you? Are you prepared to post some clips of that amazing tube tone, LOL?

http://www.myspace.com/wwwmyspacecomtommyknockers

[violation]

Well I have some links on my site that you're welcome to check out. They were recorded with the old SE I had.

As for live clips I don't have any recent ones as I just did my first gig with the new modeller.

The video clips in my site are all recorded with a tube amp and some rather expensive pedals.

What about you? Are you prepared to post some clips of that amazing tube tone, LOL?

http://www.myspace.com/wwwmyspacecomtommyknockers
Haha, sounds like my friends Digitech RP.

http://www.stephenplatt.net/music/soloclip.mp3

There's Stephen playing through his Laney in the studio. I'll gladly record some of me when everyone is gone so I can crank my Marshall and get that nice overdrive.

[Milkman]

Haha, sounds like my friends Digitech RP.

http://www.stephenplatt.net/music/soloclip.mp3

There's Stephen playing through his Laney in the studio. I'll gladly record some of me when everyone is gone so I can crank my Marshall and get that nice overdrive.

I'll be waiting with bated breath.

[violation]

Ah well, I remember being seventeen too. I thought I knew everything, LOL.
Ahh, we're going to age jokes huh... I see your 46... don't worry, I won't touch the topic, ;)

[Milkman]

Ahh, we're going to age jokes huh... I see your 46... don't worry, I won't touch the topic, ;)


Actually as you can see I edited that post, but not quick enough.

Not all seventeen year olds are quite as knowledgable and experienced as you are, LOL.

[violation]

Actually as you can see I edited that post, but not quick enough.

Not all seventeen year olds are quite as knowledgable and experienced as you are, LOL.
I get it... it takes 46 years to be experienced enough to develop an opinion or a decent ear? Bitch please, if anything your hearing has got worse.

How about my step dad who has been playing for atleast 25 years? Strange he has the same opinion huh? Or Stephen who has been playing for 15 years and agrees even when he owns BOTH tubes and modelling? Weird how that works isn't it?

Made my point, I'll leave you alone now. Hope you didn't get too stressed out, wouldn't want the last few hairs to fall out, LOL.

See, I can be funny too.

[Milkman]

I get it... it takes 46 years to be experienced enough to develop an opinion or a decent ear? Bitch please, if anything your hearing has got worse.

How about my step dad who has been playing for atleast 25 years? Strange he has the same opinion huh? Or Stephen who has been playing for 15 years and agrees even when he owns BOTH tubes and modelling? Weird how that works isn't it?

Made my point, I'll leave you alone now. Hope you didn't get too stressed out, wouldn't want the last few hairs to fall out, LOL.

See, I can be funny too.


You've made my point for me.

Have a nice day.

[ne1roc]

It can very very difficult to hear the recorded difference between a modeler and a tube amp. Another forum I frequent has the 3 clips recorded, modeler panned to one side, tube amp on the other side. We are to try and distinguish which is which. The modeler is the GNX3000, the amp is the Peavey JSX.
I find it difficult!

I used to use the GNX4 for gigs and practices but I had a really hard time cutting through the mix, up against a Marshall. I ended up getting the Carvin Legacy, which is amazing! :bow:

I loved the convenience of the GNX4 in a live situation. If I was the lone guitarist in a band, it's the route I would take. The sound quality is perfect....almost like playing a cd through the PA.

Milkman, are you the lone guitarist in your band?

[Milkman]

It can very very difficult to hear the recorded difference between a modeler and a tube amp. Another forum I frequent has the 3 clips recorded, modeler panned to one side, tube amp on the other side. We are to try and distinguish which is which. The modeler is the GNX3000, the amp is the Peavey JSX.
I find it difficult!

I used to use the GNX4 for gigs and practices but I had a really hard time cutting through the mix, up against a Marshall. I ended up getting the Carvin Legacy, which is amazing! :bow:

I loved the convenience of the GNX4 in a live situation. If I was the lone guitarist in a band, it's the route I would take. The sound quality is perfect....almost like playing a cd through the PA.

Milkman, are you the lone guitarist in your band?

For the most part yes. My keyboardist doubles on guitar for four or five tunes.


It's funny because for bigger shows we use a big black theatrical backdrop and conceal all stage amps (side stage) behind it. I've had quite a few players ask what kind of amp I was using and the look on their faces when I tell them "no amp at all" is priceless.

[Milkman]

Au contraire. For me, its all about the whole sound. For any piece of gear I try out, be it an amp, a pedal, a guitar, whatever, there are three levels of testing - playing it alone, playing it in rehearsal with a full band, and playing it live at a gig with a full band. Lots of stuff will excel at the first level. Far fewer will excel at the second or third levels, but to me no piece of gear passes muster unless it excels at all three.

Admittedly, the only modellers I've tried in a band setting are the POD, the Johnson J-Station and the Vox modelling amps. Maybe I just don't have enough patience to tweak them to the extent necessary, but I can always get a much, much, MUCH better tone just by plugging into a few decent pedals and my Maz 38, Top Hat Club Royale, Fender Deluxe Reverb, Swart 6V6Se, Vibrochamp, Vox AC15 or any other of my tube amps. And by "better", I mean both "more inspiring" and "sitting better in the mix".

Granted, it may not be fair to compare a $1,500 amp to a $350 POD, but I find that the comparison holds true even with cheaper tube amps. I can get much better tones out of a $350 Champ than a $350 POD. I suppose some of that goes to my inability (or lack of inclination) to tweak, tweak and re-tweak these things. But, why would I want to when I can get great tones just by plugging in a Champ, turning it up and pushing a '57 into the grill. That takes 5 seconds. No tweaking required.

This is all magnified tenfold when playing with another guitarist. Some time ago, I was doing some recording with my band. We were tracking drums and bass and just doing roughs of the guitars, so the guitars were using modellers for isolation. I had a really tough time getting the guitars to lay nice together, even when choosing vastly different "amps" for each. Lately, I've been doing the same thing, but tracking guitars through small tube amps stuffed underneath a table and a desk, respectively. I'm tracking an SG into a Swart and a Tele into a Vibrochamp, and the tracks sound so good together and with the drums and bass, that I'm considering using that setup to do all the final rhythm guitar tracks.

Anyway, that's what works for me. Obviously, there is no "right" answer to this.


Good to know, but I would say you are in the minority. Most guitarists stop their assessment once it sounds good to them on stage IMO.

"Granted, it may not be fair to compare a $1,500 amp to a $350 POD, but I find that the comparison holds true even with cheaper tube amps."

Oh I think it's quite fair and from what I've heard first hand a well tweaked modeler (at least the Vox units) compares very favourably.


In my case the vast majority of songs we do have keyboards and one guitar so I can't really speak with any authority on how a modeler blends with a conventional amp in a live setting.

[BloodBrotherXxX]

Thanks to everyone who posted, you are a great help. As soon as i get the chance (or money) I'm gonna take a run out to a local music store and start testing some pedals out, both individual and multi-effects pedals. And as for Milkman and Violation, I enjoyed reading your conversation/ arguement. I guess it's all about opinion. Just as long as you get the sound you are looking for or want, who cares what type of pedal it comes from.

[ENDITOL]

Thread starter: why don't you save up some money and try one single pedal to start. Overdrive is usually the most common / popular effect. Most stores even have a pretty good return policy so you aren't out if you don't like it. Or you could also buy used. Take it home and try it with your own rig.

As you can see from the arguing tone is subjective, so you pretty much need to use your own ears to evaluate and then go with what works best to you.

[ne1roc]

I can get much better tones out of a $350 Champ than a $350 POD.

That is absolute nonsense IMO.......but you'll never turn a tube amp snob.

You know, I'll agree that a tube amp will cut through the mix against a modeler, and amps are pretty much plug and play but you have to give alot af credit to what modeler can achieve, especially when recorded. A champ will never pull of a Marshall, or Vox, any high end, high gain amp tones? Now if you play some country music, that may be another story?

Rock n Roll, the POD wins.

As for staying on topic, we really need to know the type of music being played. As far as overdrive/distortion pedals go, I recommend the Visual Sound Jekyl and Hyde!

[GuitaristZ]

I have a visualsound jekyll hyde and man...its a defininite yes. buy it now before its gone!

[Milkman]

If I heated this up at all, I'm sorry.

The truth is, a good player should be able to get his tone with whatever rig he chooses within reason.


(and so will a bad player I suppose):food-smiley-004:

[ne1roc]

If I heated this up at all, I'm sorry.

The truth is, a good player should be able to get his tone with whatever rig he chooses within reason.


(and so will a bad player I suppose):food-smiley-004:

I think this comment should end all arguments!

Now.......do you mind helping me out here? jroberts just tried to shove a POD up my ass. :eek:

Be gentle. :thanks5qx:

[Milkman]

I think this comment should end all arguments!

Now.......do you mind helping me out here? jroberts just tried to shove a POD up my ass. :eek:

Be gentle. :thanks5qx:



Just be glad it wasn't a Tonelab SE!:eek:

[violation]

If I heated this up at all, I'm sorry.

The truth is, a good player should be able to get his tone with whatever rig he chooses within reason.


(and so will a bad player I suppose):food-smiley-004:
Not true at all... you can't play through a solid state Peavey and make it sound like a cranked JCM800. Your sound and phrasing comes from the fingers, tone comes from gear. Known fact...

Yah, screw tube amps. Nothing says "rock n roll" quite like digital modelling.

Nice try.
Haha, nicely said.

[EL34POWER]

Holy crap! what the hell happened here:sport-smiley-002::D

All i can say is. If YOU like it go for it. Don't let others tell you "you should get this or this piece of gear" I have sold too much gear to get what people told me i needed and still regret most of it. I could of saved thousands in the last 25 years...
But take your time and try before you buy. Because it's easy to like something at the moment but when you hear other gear thats when the GAS sets in for good:food-smiley-004:

[Milkman]

Not true at all... you can't play through a solid state Peavey and make it sound like a cranked JCM800. Your sound and phrasing comes from the fingers, tone comes from gear. Known fact...


Known fact?


Wow, now I know who to ask anytime I'm confused about fact and opinion. Thanks for setting me straight, LOL.

It may be a fact in your mind, but it's a matter of opinion to many of us, LOL.

I might just as easily say "it's a known fact that tone is in a players hands" but again that's a matter of opinion, one that happens to be widely accepted, but not by everybody.


I feel sorry for anyone who places that much emphasis on their gear.

[ne1roc]

Not true at all... you can't play through a solid state Peavey and make it sound like a cranked JCM800. Your sound and phrasing comes from the fingers, tone comes from gear. Known fact...


Haha, nicely said.

You also can't get a Champ to sound like a cranked JCM800, but you can sure get alot closer with modeler, and that was the point I was trying to get across to you tube amp fanatics, which by the way, I consider myself one as well, although I usually use the word snob.

[Paul]

My Brother-in-law is a professional sound man with Westbury National Show Systems. He was the sound guy on SRV's "Live at the El Mocambo" dvd, he's done stadium shows with The Billy Graham Crusades. He's been doing this since the 70's. He's got the ability and resume to back it up.

Several years ago he ran the monitor desk for a Doobie Brothers private corporate gig at Copp's Coliseum in Hamilton. Everybody in the band had in-ear monitors, and everybody in the band went direct. The guitars and bass went through 1st generation PODS, the keys were DI, and the drums were the top of the line Roland V-Drums. The only sounds not direct were vocals. The ONLY audible sounds created on the stage were the vocals. The FOH mix had no stage volume whatsoever to compete with or account for.

To this day he claims this was the best sounding arena show he's been a part of. Everything audio input was completely controllable. There was no bleed into any mics. And everything other than vocals was digitally processed or modeled.

I know Milkman, I've heard Milkman play, I took lessons from milkman 20-(cough) years ago when I was first learning to play, I've listened to Milkman's cd where all the guitars went through the VOX tonelab.

The bottom line is that Milkman is not doing anything that the pro's haven't been doing for years. And, based on the quality of the work he does, live and in the studio, we should all be so lucky to put out such good work. Tommyknockers have a reputation around these parts as having among the best live sound. They are loud, they are tight, they are appropriate, and they stage volume is such that everybody is not fighting to hear themselves and each other. The only thing that might give MIlkman even more control over the live qound quality of Tommyknockers is if they used vocal mic's like these: http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/mics/136826.pdf


Are tube amps a good choice? For some. I use a 5E3 Deluxe kit amp for most of my playing, but it'd be the completely wrong choice for Milkman. I own and frequently use a Line 6 Spider II 210. I use the COSM models builit into my Boss BR-1180 CD recording system. The Tonelab system is just another step in the progression from the ADA MP-1 pre-amp. How many guys used those into a SS PA amp and then into a 4x12 cabinet or two?

Systems like the VOX Tonelab, the Line 6 pod and modelling amp products, the Roland/Boss units give great bang for buck, they give you more useable tones at your fingetips than most could ever afford if they had to buy all of the amps and pedals individually.

All of my listening is done with digital sampling and reproduction. Most people call it a CD or an mp3. With rare exceptions, no matter what the original sound source was, (tube amp, modelling amp, SS amp, vocals, etc), at some point in the commercial music recording process, things get turned into bits and bytes and then processed.

The folks who disagree with Milkman remind me a lot of the drummers who dump on Ringo. Ringo may not be the most gifted drummer in the world. According to John, when asked about Ringo, he once replied that Ringo wasn't even the best drummer in The Beatles, but I have yet to find a drummer that can make a convincing case for what they would do different to improve on Ringo's contribution to the The Beatles and the songs they played.

I have yet to hear anyone put up a clip that shows how they would improve what Milkman plays.

I know I can't do any better. Tube amp or not.

[violation]

Known fact?


Wow, now I know who to ask anytime I'm confused about fact and opinion. Thanks for setting me straight, LOL.

It may be a fact in your mind, but it's a matter of opinion to many of us, LOL.

I might just as easily say "it's a known fact that tone is in a players hands" but again that's a matter of opinion, one that happens to be widely accepted, but not by everybody.


I feel sorry for anyone who places that much emphasis on their gear.
So you think you can pack a JCM800 in your fingers? Rofl, that doesn't make sense. Ok, let's play clean through a Marshall... tone is in our fingers so we can make the clean channel sound like a high gain Mesa!

Haha, how stupid can you be? Everyone SOUNDS the same no matter what amp, because of phrasing / the way their fingers work. You can't alter the TONE of the amp with your fingers (unless you're turning the knobs, rofl).

Therefore not an opinion, it's a fact. Get it now? Glad to hear it.

You also can't get a Champ to sound like a cranked JCM800, but you can sure get alot closer with modeler, and that was the point I was trying to get across to you tube amp fanatics, which by the way, I consider myself one as well, although I usually use the word snob.
Well... not neccesarily, there's a couple pedals that can get the JCM800-ish tone when added to a tube amp, like the Marshall Guv'nor, totally cool pedal.

Anyway, I get what you're sayin', but a modeller can't sound and react like a tube amp. Period. And hey, if modellers are so much better, why the hell do the companies try and emulate TUBE amps instead of designing all their own amps models?

I wouldn't call myself a tube fanatic, but I know digital shit can't touch it. Hell, I play my solid state Randall quite a bit and I dig some of the high gain tones I can get out of it, and I love my friends Roland JC if you add some pedals.

[GuitarsCanada]

Let's keep the insults and attacks down to a minimum boy's. Posts on subject.

[Stratin2traynor]

I second that motion. It gets tiring reading a bunch of insults. Everyone has opinions. Let's share them and not fight about them. My 2 cents...:food-smiley-004:

[Mooh]

When affordable modelers first appeared on the market I rushed out and bought one. I was in love. Through my little home p.a. it sound oh so cool and all those effects and amps were right there at my feet waiting to please me. After the honeymoon I discovered I was only really using the "old school" tones replicating those of my '60s and '70s guitar heros, and I started to long for the simplicity of the Tele into the Princeton. I eventually returned to Tele into tube amp (Traynor now) and masses of single purpose effects. Yeah I bought and sold a couple more modelers and would still like the same Vox we're talking about here, but cash flow prevents it.

In a perfect (read, wealthy) world, I would have and use at least one of everything, and ignore them when dust settles on them. A Tone Lab would be nice for our practice space, up a spiral staircase.

So much gear, so little time!

Peace, Mooh.

[PaulS]

[QUOTE=violation;49590]Haha, how stupid can you be? Everyone SOUNDS the same no matter what amp, because of phrasing / the way their fingers work. You can't alter the TONE of the amp with your fingers (unless you're turning the knobs, rofl).


Anyway, I get what you're sayin', but a modeller can't sound and react like a tube amp. Period. And hey, if modellers are so much better, why the hell do the companies try and emulate TUBE amps instead of designing all their own amps models?
QUOTE]


If everyone sounded the same wouldn't that be boring ???? how come Jimi didn't sound like Gilmour when they both used strats and marshalls???? The tone that makes an individual's sound come directly from his hands, how he frets and uses his fingers.... the ideas and flow come from the brain but they still gotta go through them fingers to get there.

Modeller's main purpose in life was to offer a compact, versatile unit that offered many sounds and effects in one package. Most do offer there own patches but they leave it up to you. I agree with the fact made earlier about using the modeller into a fender or marshall?? not much use there. Running through the PA or a SS personel monitor is what they sound best at.

[violation]

If everyone sounded the same wouldn't that be boring ???? how come Jimi didn't sound like Gilmour when they both used strats and marshalls???? The tone that makes an individual's sound come directly from his hands, how he frets and uses his fingers.... the ideas and flow come from the brain but they still gotta go through them fingers to get there.
How about they used different models of Marshalls? Or how about different settings? Better yet, maybe different pickups? Wait no, how about Gilmour's massive pedalboard?

Let's review the word phrasing, shall we? It's the way you play a note and/or go from note to note connecting "phrases" of music. If Clapton played a riff, and Zakk Wylde played the exact same riff, it would sound different. Even if on the same equipment. There would be slight differences because of each player's unique style, Clapton's vibato, Wylde's vibrato, their form of legato, etc. It's all (well, mostly) done subconsciously though. TONE will remain the same because of the gear, but the player's will SOUND different because of their style.

So by you saying "how he frets and uses his fingers" just proves what I've been saying all along:

Your sound and phrasing comes from the fingers, tone comes from gear. Known fact...

I rest my case your honor.

[Paul]

I'll put it this way... how many pros do you know that use digital amp models? I can't think of one, and there's a reason for that!

You don't need to think, that's waht google is for.

http://line6.com/artists/

And that's just one of the modelling companies.

[violation]

You don't need to think, that's waht google is for.

http://line6.com/artists/

And that's just one of the modelling companies.
More like people who endorse it. Example:

http://www.allknowingforce.com/sitebuilder/images/ShowLetter3-274x299.jpg

They have SOiL listed yet Shaun uses a Randall?

[Milkman]

You don't need to think, that's waht google is for.

http://line6.com/artists/

And that's just one of the modelling companies.

LOL, you're wasting your time Paul. We can't fool this guy. He knows. We don't. It's that simple.

:zzz:

[violation]

LOL, you're wasting your time Paul. We can't fool this guy. He knows. We don't. It's that simple.

:zzz:
Not my fault I've done research that helps me point out holes in your "facts".

[Milkman]

Not my fault I've done research that helps me point out holes in your "facts".

I don't state facts here. That would be you.

I state opinions.

[violation]

I don't state facts here. That would be you.

I state opinions.
Really? Let me pick out a quick one.

The truth is, a good player should be able to get his tone with whatever rig he chooses within reason.
The truth? Seems like you're implying it's a fact.

Your sound and phrasing comes from the fingers, tone comes from gear. Known fact...
Busted your "fact" with real facts.

So now you've made yourself look like a liar. Are you proud of that?

[Milkman]

Really? Let me pick out a quick one.


The truth? Seems like you're implying it's a fact.


Busted your "fact" with real facts.

So now you've made yourself look like a liar. Are you proud of that?

LOL, clearly you're much brighter and more knowledgeable than I am when it comes to all things relating to playing in a band.

I only hope I can gain the wisdom someday that you have already accumulated.

:food-smiley-004:



Hmmmm, so far in this thread I've been called "stupid", "a liar" and one can only wonder what's next.

[violation]

LOL, clearly you're much brighter and more knowledgeable than I am when it comes to all things relating to playing in a band.

I only hope I can gain the wisdom someday that you have already accumulated.

:food-smiley-004:
Haha, you can't even admit defeat without sarcasm. You fail.

/leaves thread.

[Paul]

More like people who endorse it.
They have SOiL listed yet Shaun uses a Randall?

Clapton has signature instruments with both Fender and Gibson. Who says that Line 6 users are exclusive? I use a Spider II amp because it gets me work. I also use a Trinity 5E3 kit tube amp because it meets other needs.

There are, by my count, over 150 artists on the Line 6 page to which I provided a link. You posted an image of one guy who is posed with a different manufacturers product. I'm sure if we wanted to waste time we could do that with all of the listed artists. Steve Howe had a signature ES-175, and he has been seen on stage with a Variax. Does that mean he is or is not a modelling user?

My first amp, years before you were born, was a Peavey Audition 20. It sold for, (IIRC) over $200.00. It was and is a POS. $200.00 can buy you a pretty good all-in-one pedal board, or an impressive Spider III. You will get a wider array of useful tones than you can get with just one hand wired point to point all tube combo.

You prefer a specific sound, that's fine for you. Milkman and I prefer to work, and get paid for it. Modelling gives us the flexibility we need and can use to make it happen.

Dr. Phil has a saying where many youth "...don't know what they don't know". Guys like Milkman and me, (and many others), have been doing this for 25+ years. We've got years of both giving and taking lessons under our belt. We've got post secondary music education. We've been through the death of guitar based rock bands more than once. We've made the decisions and gear choices that allow us to become, and continue to be, working musicians. You may choose a different route than us. It doesn't make any of us right or wrong, but your approach mostly comes across as a bit closed minded.

Just like the first generation BOSS effect pedals have become coveted on the used market, I believe that early generation modelling will become a "collectable". While you are replacing caps and tubes in your tube amp, many of us will be happy to buy our equipment only once.

[violation]

Clapton has signature instruments with both Fender and Gibson. Who says that Line 6 users are exclusive? I use a Spider II amp because it gets me work. I also use a Trinity 5E3 kit tube amp because it meets other needs.

There are, by my count, over 150 artists on the Line 6 page to which I provided a link. You posted an image of one guy who is posed with a different manufacturers product. I'm sure if we wanted to waste time we could do that with all of the listed artists. Steve Howe had a signature ES-175, and he has been seen on stage with a Variax. Does that mean he is or is not a modelling user?

Thing is Shaun has been using Randall (with the preamp modules) for years and has never used a Line 6 product live. I know this for a fact! There was a huge article not too long ago about his gear and he didn't mention Line 6 once. Yet Line 6's site says he uses(d) their heads.

My first amp, years before you were born, was a Peavey Audition 20. It sold for, (IIRC) over $200.00. It was and is a POS. $200.00 can buy you a pretty good all-in-one pedal board, or an impressive Spider III. You will get a wider array of useful tones than you can get with just one hand wired point to point all tube combo.

You prefer a specific sound, that's fine for you. Milkman and I prefer to work, and get paid for it. Modelling gives us the flexibility we need and can use to make it happen.
Spider III impressive? Waah?! Lol, I had one for about a week before taking it back... got it as a practice amp when they first came out. Was the first digital product I owned... first the knob that you use to change amp models stopped working, then the effects stopped working. It was all down hill from there, lol.

I agree you can get more tones, but the price is so low the quality of those tones suffer. Seriously, harmonics on the Spider III are terribley digital... not like the PODxt that atleast sound a bit natural. 1 sec they have a clip on their site that shows what I mean.

http://line6.com/spideriii/sounds01.html

Go down to the No More Tears preset clip... tell me that shit isn't insanely digital, lol.

Dr. Phil has a saying where many youth "...don't know what they don't know". Guys like Milkman and me, (and many others), have been doing this for 25+ years. We've got years of both giving and taking lessons under our belt. We've got post secondary music education. We've been through the death of guitar based rock bands more than once. We've made the decisions and gear choices that allow us to become, and continue to be, working musicians. You may choose a different route than us. It doesn't make any of us right or wrong, but your approach mostly comes across as a bit closed minded.
Lol @ Dr.Phil... example, I know your fingers can't change the tone of the amp where he said otherwise. Want to prove me wrong? Plug into a Fender and make it sound like a Mesa without the help of any effects. I'll give you all my gear if you can, rofl.

I don't need 25+ years to know what my ears tell me... my step dad has been playing just as long as that and he says the same thing... and he's got and been through a lot of gear. Was an active gigging musician since he was about 18, tried the digital route earlier this year and went back to his JCM900. I've got 20+ year old friends who have been playing since they were 10 years old and all say the same thing I do.

I am being closed minded, I admit it. I gave the PODxt and a few other products a fair shot and they failed in my books.

Versatile? Yes.

Good for people on a tight budget? Sure.

As good as the tube amps they're trying to emulate? Far from it, they react differently and it's the differences that define a tube amp and give it the great sound they have. I (and others) find them to have an unnatural tone which throws us off (anyone with a decent ear and experience with both digital and tube products can tell the difference!).

Good for home recording? If you can't crank a tube amp or need to bring the device somewhere fast, definetly a good alternative.

Just like the first generation BOSS effect pedals have become coveted on the used market, I believe that early generation modelling will become a "collectable".
I don't know if that is true... I kind of see it being the other way around, newer products will be the ones people want and go after. Technology is always growing and improving, perfect example is parts inside a PC. After a month or a year the value of the product goes down significantly because something new and improved comes out.

With vintage pedals, people go after that vintage tone and require them. With modelling, there's still some shit they need to improve.

If they improve the modelling and make it actually react like and sound as natural as the tube amp they're tryring to emulate I could see the value going up and more people becoming interested. When they do hit that stage of modelling I'll give them a fair shot again. At this point in the digital game, the tone doesn't really touch any quality amp.

Long post or what? Haha, took forever to type with 1 hand (didn't want to miss out on practice so I did legato the whole time).

[Milkman]

Here's the crux.

A piece of gear that may be great for one person with a particular need may not be the best choice for another person with other needs. I normally gig with a single-channel tube amp and a couple of pedals. I love the sound and feel, and that setup gives me all the flexibility I need for what I do. Milkman and Paul need more variety for the things they do. My rig wouldn't cut it for them. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.

This is kind of like a carpenter and an electrician arguing over whether a soldering iron or a circular saw is the better tool.


Well yes and no. I don't need the flexibility so much and if I didn't like the basic sounds I wouldn't choose a modeler over a conventional rig. Neither would I choose it based on price alone.

The sounds I use could easily be obtained with a modest amp and pedalboard.

I just think this sounds better out front and the other benefits (ease of transport and set up, added space on stage, relative economy, et cetera) although secondary considerations, obviously make the decision easier.