What makes a guitar sound muddy?

[violation]

Guy I know bought a "Mann" LP copy (I think that's the brand?), apparently it's real old... he didn't plug in and play, saw it pretty cheap ($375) and figured it could be a nice axe with a few replacements.

Gets home, plays it, sounds muddy... figured it's the electronics. So he goes out, bought a set of EMGs, new switch and all that good stuff. Threw it in, plugged into his Peavey and it still sounds pretty muddy. So I lend him some spare Dimarzio's to try out, he orders new pots and shit... still muddy. Tried with various amps / settings / pedals, same result. Neither of us can figure it out.

Could it be just the way it aged?

Any help is appreciated... he's gettin' frustrated, lol. It's a nice lookin' guitar though.

[GuitaristZ]

Perhaps the guitar is made of mudwood...

















What bodywood is it? And what value of capacitators was he using on the tone pot? And values?

[violation]

He was told mahogany at the shop... caps are .022 uF, little ceramic orange ones and 500k pots. I believe he got them from GF... he uses those for passives atleast. EMGs came with their own.

[Hamm Guitars]

If the guitar does not sound muddy accousticly, then try changing some of the contact points - the jack and the switch. Start with the jack and wire a single pickup straight out, bypassing all other components to rule them out.

If the previous owner was a smoker, and it was not played or not plugged in very often then the jack might just be munged up.

Edit: I just re-read and see that you have allready changed the switch. If you have tried the jack and you get the same results bypassing all of the other electronics then you should try a set of pickups that will compliment the sound of the guitar - try something really bright.

[violation]

Will pass on the info, thanks!

[SinCron]

Yeah it's definetly not the guitar body. EMG's sound the same no matter what. Well, pretty much. Yeah, I'd definetly say it's a wiring job. What Dimarzio's do you have anyway?

[Paul]

The patch cord?

Seriously, I've got an old cable with a switched end that is more than dark sounding, it's downright muddy to the point of no clarity.

[violation]

Come on now, EMG's don't sound the same in every guitar. Dynamics change, I've got 'em in mahogany and alder, my step dad has 'em in mahogany and basswood and they all sound different. I will say they sound kind of dull for my taste though, that's why I'm shifting away from them. Some people love them (like my step dad and tons of other people).

Dimarizo's... shit, more like which ones don't I have, haha. Nah, I've got like 5 Super Distortions, couple D-Sonics, and unknown white one that aren't being used I believe. Plus an EMG 81, tons of stock ones and an unknown Seymour Duncan, lol.

My step dad just gave me all the Super Distortions, he used to play in a KISS tribute band, had tons of 'em and when he moved away from that he went to EMGs. A year ago I started playing, and probably 3 months in I started gettin' serious so he just handed me the pile of pickups and a soldering iron / solder and said "have fun!", haha.

I gave him a Super Distortion and D-Sonic to try out... he ended up tryin' the D-Sonic in his Ibanez and loved it so he's gonna buy it from me. So I guess I only have one left unless he wants it too, lol.

As for cable, he uses those $90 Monster cables... crazy ass price. I think it's their "rock" series? Some model Monster offers with gold ends, that's all I remember.

[The Kicker Of Elves]

dimarzio "Humbucker From Hell" in the neck will usually eliminate mud in that position...

Best neck pickup in Mahogany and/or LP type guitars I've ever heard.

[Greenman]

Could aged witness points at the nut and bridge effect sound? How about neck pocket fit if it's a bolt on.

[SinCron]

Man. I want that D Sonic and a Paf Pro if ya have it :P.

[Lester B. Flat]

Could it be just the way it aged?



It could be the just way it was born. If different amps, pickups etc. won't cure it, well....

[peter benn]

Maybe it's the wood.

[cougar2]

The problem is probably with the string contact points. For example, if the nut slots are too tight or the nut slot is not back angled enough for the string to ramp off the front of the nut. It may be contacting back further in the nut and this can cause a muddy sound. The same goes for the saddle, if the saddle is worn and does not ramp properly then you have the same problem. You have already ruled out anything to do with the electronics and in the repair work that I get this is what it is most times. You may try just cleaning out the nut slots of all crap that may be in the slots.
I didn’t ask, is it all the strings? And did you change the strings?

Dennis

[violation]

Yeah, all new strings and tried 2 different brands just in case. Passed on the info, he got a medium output Dimarzio for the bridge since we only tried high output Dimarzios and he's swapping all the hardware. Basically swapping everything possible, lol.

Thanks guys.

[violation]

Man. I want that D Sonic and a Paf Pro if ya have it :P.
Hah, he ended up buyin' all my D-Sonics, no Paf Pro's here!

[bogoboy]

Maybe its the pots (caps??) or bad soldering (cold soldered joints).

bogoboy

[NB-SK]

He was told mahogany at the shop... caps are .022 uF, little ceramic orange ones and 500k pots. I believe he got them from GF... he uses those for passives atleast. EMGs came with their own.

Ceramic caps? Try orange drops instead. That brightened up my Epiphone.

[AJ6stringsting]

Strange how every little things contributes to a guitars timbre/tone (caps, wood, bridge,amp,pots, E.Q.)and individuality in a big way. If you use a harden steel bridge you'll have too much treble , lose some mids and lots of bass. You use softer metals, like grade 2 or grade 5 steel, you have more bass, fatter mids and medium treble responce.
Next step I'd take would be pick up selections. If you read some of the specs on pick ups. Things like ohms and mili volts start to make sence. If a pick up has 6.9 ohms to 9.0 ohms it's going to have lots of treble, some mids and minimal bass, 11.5 ohms to 13.2 ohms is in the medium range and 14.0 to 17.0 ohms, is pure Metaldom :rockon2:, tons of bass , huge mids, and some treble. The higher you go up in value rating the more treble you'll lose, the lower the rating the more treble. Party on Dudes........!!!!!!!!!:food-smiley-004:

[fraser]

ive seen a few mann guitars around- perhaps the alloy used to make the tailpiece and bridge is cheap- like AJ6stringsting alluded to. endless pickup swaps likely wont help if this is the case. i have an el degas 335 copy, my first electric that was playable, got it brand new around 1982. came stock with dimarzio super distortions in it- muddy as hell. actually i couldnt even use it, as it turned all my solos into muck. left it like that for years, but a buddy borrowed it and ****ed it up, the bridge saddles got lost. the only replacement i could find at the time was a gibson chrome bridge and saddles(the original was brass)- the new chrome saddles wouldnt fit in the stock brass bridge so i had to replace the whole thing. muddiness was gone. still turns my solos into muck, but not muddy muck, more liquid muck. humbuckers never worked for me lol.

[suttree]

yah big thing is how does it sound acoustically? you can't polish a turd.... if it sounds dead unplugged, then you can try a new nut and new hardware, it may help.. pretty soon you're $650 into what was supposed to be a cheap guitar (god knows I've never done this:rolleyes:), is the problem. you could always do the 80's thing and put a brass nut on the guitar, that oughta zing things up a bunch. a good setup is vital, too.. dennis/cougar2 might be onto the root of the problem. i'd take it to a good tech and get their opinion, most of this kind of stuff has to be sussed out in person, unfortunately. good luck

[violation]

Whoa old thread, I guess I never replied to tell you guys he got it to sound fine! My bad.

We're not sure what ultimately changed it... he took the tailpiece, bridge and tuners off and replaced them with all new. He figured all the parts he got @ GF may have been faulty (doubtful though) so he bought ALL new ones again (jack, switch, pots, etc.) and threw LOW output Dimarzios in instead of medium... PAF Classics I think?

Since he only had a couple packs of strings left he did it all at once so we don't know what changed it. The good news is that it sounds pretty good now.

He's gonna' help me do it to my Ibanez LP once I get all the parts figured out... it sounds fine, but I've never replaced a bridge and tailpiece lol so help would be great.

Thanks for the tips guys!

[NB-SK]

I also changed the factory tail piece and bridge for a Gotoh 'Nashville' bridge and a Gotoh aluminum tail piece. That really improved the tone.

[Budda]

i dont think the tailpiece is ahrd - you unscrew it :P

[1PUTTS]

Just another point - sometimes you need to fiddle around with the height of the pickups to find that "sweet spot". If they are too high, you'll get mud.

[Greg Ellis]

i have an el degas 335 copy, my first electric that was playable, got it brand new around 1982. came stock with dimarzio super distortions in it- muddy as hell. actually i couldnt even use it, as it turned all my solos into muck.

Heh! I've got an old El Degas from the early 80's too! It's not an ES 335 copy, more like the Santana PRS in shape, but it's got those fancy dimarzio's in it (big selling feature back then, apparently) and it just sounds like a$$. Super-mud. Blech. It plays great unplugged, but as soon as I plug it in, it's just garbage, always has been.

My Degas has the same brass bridge and saddles you mentioned. I'll have to try something else there. It never occurred to me that it could be the bridge.