Spanking...

[david henman]

...hard to believe that in 2007 there are some who still defend this barabaric substitute for good parenting skills. my theory is that the same parents who advocate spanking are the ones whose "no" actually means "try harder". the same parents who will subsequently complain "i can't do anything with him/her".

-dh

[starman345]

"i can't do anything with him/her". has been around as long as parents and children have....I know, I'm almost that old:zzz: Fifty years ago, spanking was acceptable, not now, fifty years from now, "parenting skills" of today probably won't be acceptable either. Nothing stays the same except change. Part of our evolution I guess, hopefully for the better.

[rippinglickfest]

...hard to believe that in 2007 there are some who still defend this barabaric substitute for good parenting skills. my theory is that the same parents who advocate spanking are the ones whose "no" actually means "try harder". the same parents who will subsequently complain "i can't do anything with him/her".

-dh
This is a tough one............I remember when i was young I used to be dealt with by corporal punishment when I did something wrong and I did do some incredibly wrong things.............and I turned out okay.
Some say its abuse...........it is if you are doing it on a regular basis and are causing broken bones bruises etc.... and this is illegal.
I have 6 kids of my own and although I was guilty of losing it sometimes when I was a young parent and did spank them when I thought it was warranted, which was not very often. I learned that in my case, that depriving them of privileges works a lot better when discipline was the goal.
On the other side of the coin.......the 3 eldest in our family myself included were given a royal shellacing when we screwed up........with my 3 younger siblings my parents decided that they didnt want that approach with them...they were getting older and decided it didnt help us.......but I think it did.
I have noticed that my younger siblings dont have the high degree of respect for my parents as us older ones. They also are still clinging to them and rely on them too much.
With some kids, you can talk to them until you are blue in the face, deprive them of privileges and it doesnt work at all.
luckily mine do listen but I have to repeat myself a lot. All we can do is guide them because they will do what they want anyway.

[Powdered Toast Man]

I wouldn't classify regular spanking as child abuse either. I certainly don't think a parent should be locked away or have their kids taken away because they gave their kid a good kick in the ass (I know I deserved a few in my youth). However, regular spanking is completely ineffective as a method of parenting. What does work is setting rules, and STICKING TO IT - once you've made a decision you cannot let the kid eventually get their way if they just keep pushing. How many episodes of Super Nanny have you seen where this is exactly the parent's problem? Their kids run wild and they can't control them because they have no credibility. Even spankers have the same wild kids.

[GuitaristZ]

I see soo many kids today which aren't spanked, and they are the worst behaved generation yet. Explain that.

[Hamm Guitars]

Fear and respect.

Both will allow you to enforce your will onto your children.

Respect works incredibly well, and teaches the child the difference between right and wrong by example. It allows you to pass on skills to your child and makes them think about their actions and make choices appropriately.

Fear works only when the threat is present, and the child quickly learns that they can do what ever they want when fear is not looming. People that are controlled by fear often turn out to be 'followers' as opposed to 'Leaders'.

Then of course, there is no controll at all which is kind of like gambling with your kids life.

All just my opinion, as usual.

[Beatles]

Interesting thread. Wouldn't be surprised to see lots of opinions on this.

If there are any other members here that are at the upper end of the "boomer" age, they may remember very well that it wasn't unusual to be disciplined at home. Yes that did include getting spanked, or on the very rare occasion getting a a real good whollop. But the discipline did not end at home. If we got out of line at school, common practice was the strap, or in some cases the ruler. Seems that there was a common methodology of dealing with kids who, for whatever reason, misbehaved. There used to be an old saying....spare the rod, spoil the child.

Having two kids of my own, now 17 and 21, when they were young, admittedly on occasion, they would get spanked. Not very often mind you but it happened. As they grew older, they started to realize that it's better to behave. Now if they screw up, and yes they still do, we talk things through. I agree that parenting skills are important, and most parents do their best, but after all we have never been parents before. If some kids today are perceived as being bad, may it's the parents who should be looked at. No expert at any of this....still flying by the seat of my pants. Just trying to do the best for my kids and steer them in the right direction.

[david henman]

I see soo many kids today which aren't spanked, and they are the worst behaved generation yet. Explain that.


...explain what?

do you have any statistics to support your theory?

my parents never, ever laid a hand on me. i did receive a strapping at school. i don't remember what for, nor do i recall any lesson learned. i do, however, clearly remember both the pain and the humiliation.

i have little doubt that fear, pain and humiliation get the job done. if you want your children to fear you, and to experience pain and humiliation, spanking will definitely accomplish that. and its a hell of a lot easier than doing the right thing, which is learning to communicate with your children, as well as sticking to your word.

-dh

[The Kicker Of Elves]

...hard to believe that in 2007 there are some who still defend this barabaric substitute for good parenting skills. my theory is that the same parents who advocate spanking are the ones whose "no" actually means "try harder". the same parents who will subsequently complain "i can't do anything with him/her".

-dh


if you want your children to fear you, and to experience pain and humiliation, spanking will definitely accomplish that. and its a hell of a lot easier than doing the right thing, which is learning to communicate with your children, as well as sticking to your word.


No offense, but you opened this "discussion" with a near-straw man ("barbaric substitute") and then state that spanking will only cause pain and humiliation...your viewpoint on this type of discipline is your opinion.

It discourages people with a different opinion from speaking up, as you have already declared the practice to be horrific and wrong.

[Coustfan'01]

I did get a spanking or two as a child , and maybe it served me.. But the most important point is to be consistent and stick to your word . My girlfriend's mom for example , is really bad at that .
One day his little brother ( who's like 14 or 15 ) was throwing a fit for I don't know what , and sometomes he gets away with it because she feels good that day . But that time , she yelled at him , then he went outside and hit the house with a shovel and broke the wall covering a bit . He then came back inside , and she grabbed/ punched him in the face(he had a skidoo helmet on ) and broke the visor . A couple of hours later , she came to her senses... Who's paying the helmet ? Who's paying the wall covering?

On the other hand , my mom rules . One day , we went to a construction site me and my brother . A friend of mine told her , and when we got back we were grounded...So we got angry , and proceded to empty our drawers on the floor of our bedroom( we were like 5 and 7 years old) . Then we bring her to the room , and say something like"If you're not nice with us , we won't be nice with you" . My girlfriend's mom would probably have yelled , slapped , and picked up the clothes... But my mom said" Oh . Too bad you'll have to put it back in the drawer... " and exited the room . That day we learned that there's a consequence to your actions , and I don't remember doing stupid things like that again .

(sorry if that's a bit long and confused , my english is not that good )

[david henman]

No offense, but you opened this "discussion" with a near-straw man ("barbaric substitute") and then state that spanking will only cause pain and humiliation...your viewpoint on this type of discipline is your opinion.
It discourages people with a different opinion from speaking up, as you have already declared the practice to be horrific and wrong.

...yes, i understand that. it was not the best approach for me to take.

in own mind it set up a challenge: how do you defend the practise of striking a child?

the idea being to encourage people to closely examine the rationale behind spanking, beyond the obvious and commonly accepted perception that, yes, it does "get the job done".

-dh

[ne1roc]

Oh yeah...another interesting topic to debate over!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a little open hand swat on the bum, when communication fails. Strike 3.......wack! If you don't put a touch of fear into your kids as young children, they sure won't fear you as a teenager.

[Michelle]

As a kid, I did get the stick quite a few times, though I may have deserved some sort of 'punishment', spanking never cured anything, it may have made me pull in my horns to alleviate the crisis at hand, but in retrospect, it made me bitter and vengeful, to this day! The psychological and emotional abuse was worse. Ok, I'm getting upset now....

As a parent, I am lucky, I was always able to talk to my kid and the few times that I couldn't get thru, then it was restrictions/loss of liberty/privileges that worked. I just couldn't bring myself to assault my daughter. And she turned out very well.

Though there are a few people out there that I would love to slip them some sid, tie them up naked in the back of my truck, take them thru a car wash with the hot wax and then spank them. :eek: All while wearing leather and stiletto boots. :)

Mich

[I_cant_play]

I'm definitely kind of a fence sitter on this one. I don't think a spanking should be out of the question but should be used very sparingly also. Like someone else here, I also had an experience when I was 6 years old with a schoolteacher slapping me really hard in front of the whole class. It wasn't so much the pain that bothered me it was the humiliation. To this day I still cannot remember why I was hit. It was probably because I was talking too much or something or I didn't use the formal "you" - which doesn't exist in English - in addressing her one time - either way I'm not really sure.

Having said that, I do think that a spanking in private where it doesn't involve public humiliation can be beneficial on the odd occasion having had a taste of it from my parents. Looking back I even think that I should have gotten a few more of those because now I realize that there are times I'm really ashamed of how disrespectful I've been towards them when I was in my early teens. They however, never punished me in any way in front of people and I think that makes a very important difference. I also have a cousin whose dad likes to go nuts on him for every little thing and well...needless to say it just becomes a very disgusting routine after some time without any positive effects.

btw being 20 years old now I still think about that teacher and fantasize about meeting her in the street and slapping her back as hard as I can and then letting her know why...call me crazy..

[The Kicker Of Elves]

Though there are a few people out there that I would love to slip them some sid, tie them up naked in the back of my truck, take them thru a car wash with the hot wax and then spank them. :eek: All while wearing leather and stiletto boots. :)

Mich

:eek:

Heh, there are plenty of people who would volunteer. It takes all kinds. :tongue:

[ne1roc]

Though there are a few people out there that I would love to slip them some sid, tie them up naked in the back of my truck, take them thru a car wash with the hot wax and then spank them. :eek: All while wearing leather and stiletto boots. :)

Mich

:eek: I'm outta here!

[The Kicker Of Elves]

...yes, i understand that. it was not the best approach for me to take.

in own mind it set up a challenge: how do you defend the practise of striking a child?

the idea being to encourage people to closely examine the rationale behind spanking, beyond the obvious and commonly accepted perception that, yes, it does "get the job done".

-dh

And people who believe that disciplining a child by an occasional spanking (which is not the same as backhanding a young person across the face) is an effective method of correcting behaviour would probably take issue with the idea that they had to "defend" anything.

Personally I think that how people raise their children is their own business (within limits of course.)

[jcon]

I don't have a problem with spanking as a disciplinary measure, provided it's not an everyday occurrence and isn't the only method of punishment a parent utilizes. I sure had my fair share of it growing up (old school Italian parents). To their credit, my parents parenting skills weren't limited to spankings. They set limits for me and I knew the consequences of overstepping those boundaries.
While it seems as though more and more children are ill-mannered and disrespectful, I seriously doubt a good spanking would magically put an end to that behaviour.

That said, I'm 29 years old and if my mom waived a wooden spoon in my direction today I'd probably still run in the other direction :)

[david henman]

Oh yeah...another interesting topic to debate over!
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a little open hand swat on the bum, when communication fails. Strike 3.......wack! If you don't put a touch of fear into your kids as young children, they sure won't fear you as a teenager.


...which begs the question: is there a reason why your children should be afraid of you?

-dh

[david henman]

And people who believe that disciplining a child by an occasional spanking (which is not the same as backhanding a young person across the face) is an effective method of correcting behaviour would probably take issue with the idea that they had to "defend" anything.
Personally I think that how people raise their children is their own business (within limits of course.)

...i agree. but this isn't about minding other people's business. its a philosophical discussion of the pros and cons of spanking.

perhaps "defend" is not the right word. "justify" might be more accurate.

i'm still convinced that spanking is a poor substitute for good parenting skills and the ability to communicate with and discipline a child.

one of the first things i discovered raising a daughter was how happy she was when she understood her boundaries. you could actually see a sense of liberation on her face once she knew where the lines were drawn, and now she was free to get on with the business of having fun rather than being subject to internal forces that push her to see how far she can go and how much she can get away with.

ultimately, don't you have to ask yourself how parents manage to raise their children successfully without resorting to hitting them?

-dh

[ne1roc]

...which begs the question: is there a reason why your children should be afraid of you?

-dh

They should fear what you will do, be it spanking, standing in the corner, or getting their allowance taken away.

I don't drink and drive because of fear of loosing my license and going to jail, not because I am a responsible adult.......because that is just too politically correct for me!

Out of interest David, how old is your daughter? Daughters are angels until they reach grade 8.

[The Kicker Of Elves]

i'm still convinced that spanking is a poor substitute for good parenting skills and the ability to communicate with and discipline a child.


It should not be a substitute. It can, however, be part of a parent's range of disciplines used to correct behavior.

Insinuating or declaring that "good parenting skills" can't include phsical discipline is going to the extreme again.

It's like a person on the "pro-spanking" side* claiming that "only a bad wussy parent doesn't spank their children." It's a fallacy.


*(not the "hot wax, leather and spike heels" type of spanking)

[The Kicker Of Elves]

They should fear what you will do, be it spanking, standing in the corner, or getting their allowance taken away.

I don't drink and drive because of fear of loosing my license and going to jail, not because I am a responsible adult.......because that is just too politically correct for me!

Out of interest David, how old is your daughter? Daughters are angels until they reach grade 8.

Take the word "fear" and replace it with "respect", and it is a little closer to what I think you are getting at...

We don't live in terror of going to jail (unless charges are pending) and neither does a child who knows certain actions can have consequences.

The argumentative question "Do you want your child to be afraid of you?" is tossed out a lot in this kind of debate, and it's a load of ****.

Of course I don't want my kid to be afraid of me, and I wasn't afraid of my parents growing up. I did respect them, I respected their authority and that my actions had consequences.

[david henman]

They should fear what you will do, be it spanking, standing in the corner, or getting their allowance taken away.
I don't drink and drive because of fear of loosing my license and going to jail, not because I am a responsible adult.......because that is just too politically correct for me!
Out of interest David, how old is your daughter? Daughters are angels until they reach grade 8.


...one is 27, the other 33, and still angels (grin)!

do you see any difference between fear of punishment and discipline, and being afraid of being hurt and humiliated?

-dh

[david henman]

Take the word "fear" and replace it with "respect", and it is a little closer to what I think you are getting at...
We don't live in terror of going to jail (unless charges are pending) and neither does a child who knows certain actions can have consequences.
The argumentative question "Do you want your child to be afraid of you?" is tossed out a lot in this kind of debate, and it's a load of ****.

...i don't think so. i respected my folks. a lot. i still do. they were role models.

i was never afraid of them. i never experienced any fear that they would subject me to the pain and humiliation of being hit.

-dh

[The Kicker Of Elves]

...i don't think so. i respected my folks. a lot. i still do. they were role models.

i was never afraid of them. i never experienced any fear that they would subject me to the pain and humiliation of being hit.

-dh

Ok, I'd agree with "humiliation" if I was tossed over a knee and paddled in the middle of a crowd...

But a spanking doesn't scar a child for life...getting caned in Singapore is pain and humiliation.

If a spanking is a traumatic experience, life is going to steamroll over a kid when they grow up.

[david henman]

Insinuating or declaring that "good parenting skills" can't include phsical discipline is going to the extreme again.

...really? there are more and more parents who successfully raise their children without physical discipline.

simply because it is quite possible.

in fact, if you quizzed them, they would probably tell you that it really wasn't all that difficult.

what do you imagine you are accomplishing when you spank your children?

-dh

[david henman]

Ok, I'd agree with "humiliation" if I was tossed over a knee and paddled in the middle of a crowd...
But a spanking doesn't scar a child for life...getting caned in Singapore is pain and humiliation.
If a spanking is a traumatic experience, life is going to steamroll over a kid when they grow up.


...really? life is rough for all of us but, i don't know, i've survived pretty well without the benefit of spanking to prepare me for the all the struggles that life presents. i doubt that i'm the only one.

more to the point, however, i think you will that most of us consider spanking, or even the very thought of spanking, to be a humiliating experience, whether it is done in an empty room or at a busy mall.

-dh

[The Kicker Of Elves]

...really? there are more and more parents who successfully raise their children without physical discipline.

simply because it is quite possible.

in fact, if you quizzed them, they would probably tell you that it really wasn't all that difficult.

what do you imagine you are accomplishing when you spank your children?

-dh

And if they can raise their children to be unselfish, respectful adults great. Not every child (and not every parent) is the same, and some need more than a stern talking to and a timeout.

There are also lots of dog owners that train a puppy purely through rewards and wouldn't use a mild jerk of the leash to correct behavior.

Some children, and some dogs need a little more.

It doesn't have to be a beating that could win you a heavyweight fight...

[ne1roc]

...really? there are more and more parents who successfully raise their children without physical discipline.

simply because it is quite possible.

in fact, if you quizzed them, they would probably tell you that it really wasn't all that difficult.

what do you imagine you are accomplishing when you spank your children?

-dh

There are also many parents who succesfully raise their kids with physical discipline.

[david henman]

And if they can raise their children to be unselfish, respectful adults great. Not every child (and not every parent) is the same, and some need more than a stern talking to and a timeout.
There are also lots of dog owners that train a puppy purely through rewards and wouldn't use a mild jerk of the leash to correct behavior.
Some children, and some dogs need a little more.

...so you give them more.

is there a valid reason why it has to come in the form of hitting?

-dh

[ne1roc]

Physical discipline being the odd slap in th behind of course.

[david henman]

There are also many parents who succesfully raise their kids with physical discipline.

...undoubtedly. but does that negate the possibility that there may actually be a more effective, safer, saner and even more civilized way to do it?

-dh

[ne1roc]

...undoubtedly. but does that negate the possibility that there may actually be a more effective, safer, saner and even more civilized way to do it?

-dh

We have no facts of either being more effective. There is more then one way to do many things in life and end up with the same results. That is a fact!


OT: By the way, I love all the changes happening to this forum right in front of my eyes! Now I can see who's on topic! :rockon:

[The Kicker Of Elves]

more to the point, however, i think you will [agree?] that most of us consider spanking, or even the very thought of spanking, to be a humiliating experience, whether it is done in an empty room or at a busy mall.

-dh

Replace "humiliation" with a healthy dose of "ashamed" and I wouldn't argue.

I'll keep saying, there are degrees of severity for everything. I don't think all forms of physical discipline are abuse (and therefore wrong).

[The Kicker Of Elves]

...so you give them more.

is there a valid reason why it has to come in the form of hitting?

-dh

Spanking = valid for some people.

Be wary of falling into "my way is the only way."

[david henman]

Spanking = valid for some people.
Be wary of falling into "my way is the only way."


...yes, sir!

:tongue:

by the way, i don't think anyone here has actually attempted to explain why spanking is a good idea, much less a better idea than patience, communication and no-always-means-no discipline.

-dh

[david henman]

We have no facts of either being more effective. There is more then one way to do many things in life and end up with the same results. That is a fact!

...are you sure?

does anyone have access to studies and stats on spanking vs not spanking?

more to the point, if spanking is not more effective than not spanking, doesn't that actually beg the question?

-dh

[The Kicker Of Elves]

...yes, sir!

:tongue:

by the way, i don't think anyone here has actually attempted to explain why spanking is a good idea, much less a better idea than patience, communication and no-always-means-no discipline.

-dh

I think some of the posts attempted to.

Of course, every child is different, and every circumstance is different...no one is going to argue that a spanking is the end-all be-all of discipline for every offense.

A very willful child might need a smack here and there...and some children respond very well to withdrawl of priveleges and debate.

When a child is a little older discussing the issue and trying to make them see WHY throwing a ball around the house is not acceptable behavior can be effective. It's even MORE effective if they respect their parent(s) already. At some point many children start to challenge authority, and debating the issue with them usually results in someone getting called a "poopyhead".


...are you sure?

does anyone have access to studies and stats?

in any case, if spanking is not more effective than not spanking, doesn't that actually beg the question?

-dh


I see your call for stats and studies and counter with the same. Where are the true scientific studies done with double blinds and administered by a neutral party that claim not-spanking children is the best method of rearing them? Good luck!

"Wanted: young children to participate in a spanking study." :eek:

[Luke98]

I'm of the current generation and I did get spanked when i was younger... It didn't really do anything. Well. Kind of hard for me to have any imput here lol.

[GuitaristZ]

http://i22.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/7f/3a/4727_2.JPG

I believe in "Applying the Board of education to the seat of understanding."

If God didnt believe in spanking, why did he give us so much jiggly flesh on our gluteus maximus?

haha

the word Glueteus even sounds like spanking terminilogy...think about it haha!!!

[Hamm Guitars]

If I had to pick a side of the fence to stand on I would be all for not hitting your kids. I don't hit my kids, but I also don't care if someone else chooses to use physical disipline on theirs (within reason of course), it's realy none of my business how other parents choose to reer their children.

On the other hand, it has always been taught in my family that if you are physically threatened or you witness a family member, female, elderly or defensless person being threatened then the gloves come off regardless of your chances of winning or loosing. I was also taught not to start a fight for no good reason. I've passed this onto my boys and it has allready caused some issues with the school board, just as it did when I was younger.

I guess I've been taught that you only unleash violence on bad people, and I don't consider my kids or family members to be bad people.

Spanking a child in a diciplinary manner, I don't really consider violent as long as the parent hasn't lost their cool. I always picture a spanking as something you would get when your father gets home, not an instantanious response in the heat of the moment.

[iaresee]

I thought this was going to be a thread about spanking and popping. There was a great article in Guitar Player about this a few months ago. There's a series of video lessons here (http://www.guitarplayertv.com/) with Jude Gold. I dig the baritone he's using in those lessons.

[GuitaristZ]

I thought this was going to be a thread about spanking and popping. There was a great article in Guitar Player about this a few months ago. There's a series of video lessons here (http://www.guitarplayertv.com/) with Jude Gold. I dig the baritone he's using in those lessons.
now that is one kind of spanking I wouldnt mind receiving haha.

[sneakypete]

more than a few times my father scared the crap out of me when he`d lose his temper. He did hit me sometimes and other times just kinda shake me around not to mention the things he said...and thats why I don`t have kids...too afraid I`d do the same thing.
Over here parents hit their kids on the head, usually on the top with a pretty hard slap, sometimes it`s just a very light tap when they`re kidding but when they get serious it`s hard... I don`t like it but what can I do, I`m just visiting.
My sister and her husband have never ever hit their kids and they`ve grown up to be really nice young adults so I don`t think it`s necessary to spank kids.

[PaulS]

I don't feel spanking is neccessary, in some cases I could be wrong but it never has resorted to that in my family . Authourity is neccessary, knowing who is in charge, the kids or the parents..... To many times today I see families where the kids are in charge....

[Ripper]

Times have changed so much since I was young. I was spanked, not regularly and never in the heat of the moment, usually it was the "when your father gets home" and only after I had continued to do something and regular punshiments hadn't worked. I don't feel they changed me for the worse. I've got five children, three fully grown and two still at home. My children certainly have had a tap on the bottom a time or two. I think there is merit for both ways of doing it. Of course I'm also from the time/area where when two fellows had a major disagreement, you went out side settled it, it was over and done and then you had a beer together, times have changed.

I've always been curious though, is the whole timeout/stand in a corner thing not really a type of physical as well as emotional discipline? You are confining the child to an area or restricting movement all together (physical..stand/sit still, don't move) as well as removing interaction with others (emotional).

[david henman]

I see your call for stats and studies and counter with the same. Where are the true scientific studies done with double blinds and administered by a neutral party that claim not-spanking children is the best method of rearing them? Good luck!


...sorry, but i asked you first. for me its simply a case of visualizing a full grown adult striking a small child and thinking: how can this be a good thing?

-dh

[ne1roc]

...sorry, but i asked you first.

-dh

Sounds like a reply from someone who can't prove their pont of view?

[RIFF WRATH]

I was spanked as a kid and my Dad was a cop. I got strapped at school a few times.. The local constabulary kicked my ass once.A long time ago.Then it was called dicipline and now it is physical abuse. go figure.
my 2 had a few cuffs when younger. and it worked for me and for them.I got their attention.
I was born in 1950, and my kids were growing up in the 70's. Today it is a different world. There are a larger number of kids today from "broken homes". Remember your parents saying that to explain someone elses kids behavior?
I can't count the number of times i have had to experience someone's small child acting out in the store and doing the tantrum thing. Believe me, I would of only got away with it once back then. Not even.
I think that a cuff now and then is OK. (not a beating)
Todays youngsters IMOH lack discipline, respect and even ethics. I believe TV , videos & games as well as not having a role model (broken home) are to blame. Imagine emulating someone from the ghetto and dressing like a jailbird.
"spare the rod and spoil the child"
maybe I'm getting old and grumpy.
by the way, most of the people I interact with that have children have used some type of limited physical deterent at some time and those kids that I see are awesome well behaved kids. Most often privaleges are suspended. That brings up the issue of bribery, by the way, isn't bribery immoral.

good luck to all of you who are now having to make these type of decisions. I am a new grandpa and have 2 tiny boys that i plan to spoil. maybe as a payback to my daughter LOL
cheers
RIFF (whack) RAFF

[david henman]

Sounds like a reply from someone who can't prove their pont of view?


...well, perhaps i wasn't obvious enough. it IS my point of view. in other words, and opinion. based upon a personal belief.

so what, exactly, would you like me to prove? that this really is my opinion?

also, for the record, my challenge was not to you personally, but to anyone in general.

-dh

[ne1roc]

...well, perhaps i wasn't obvious enough. it IS my point of view. in other words, and opinion. based upon a personal belief.

so what, exactly, would you like me to prove? that this really is my opinion?

also, for the record, my challenge was not to you personally, but to anyone in general.

-dh

I believe you were the one who started this topic, basically saying that parents who spank their children are barbarians and have poor parenting skills. If you are going to make an opinion like that, I believe you should have some facts ready to back up your opinion.

I have no facts for either side of the arguement and therefore accept both parenting styles. I believe they both work well!

[david henman]

I believe you were the one who started this topic, basically saying that parents who spank their children are barbarians and have poor parenting skills. If you are going to make an opinion like that, I believe you should have some facts ready to back up your opinion.
I have no facts for either side of the arguement and therefore accept both parenting styles. I believe they both work well!


...fair enough, although i take exception to your paraphrasing of my original statement.

what i'm trying to find out is why people think that spanking a child is a good idea, much less a better idea than good communication.

-dh

[nine]

There are also many parents who succesfully raise their kids with physical discipline.

Exactly. Different people, different needs, different techniques.

What makes you think you're so right, David Henman? Usually you're pretty balanced on issues, but on this one you're really up there on a high horse, looking down on the "barbarians". And sure, we can split hairs on the paraphrasing of your original post, but I think it's pretty clear to everyone that if you describe corporal punishment as "barbaric", it's obviously barbarians that would deal out the punishment. I don't think that conclusion is a stretch by any means.

Also, you're being kind of hypocritical, because you dismissed ne1roc's request for you to provide some facts supporting your opinion, yet on the first page you asked GuitaristZ for proof of his theory about unruly kids.

[david henman]

Also, you're being kind of hypocritical, because you dismissed ne1roc's request for you to provide some facts supporting your opinion, yet on the first page you asked GuitaristZ for proof of his theory about unruly kids.


...your charge of hypocrisy is misguided.

it is my opinion that striking a child is cruel, and serves no purpose other than to cause pain and humiliation. it is not a statement of fact which, i agree, would have to be supported in order to have any integrity.

guitaristz made a claim ("I see soo many kids today which aren't spanked, and they are the worst behaved generation yet.").

i was curious to find out how he would know if they have been spanked or not, not to mention if he can support his claim that "they are the worst behaved generation yet".

-dh

[david henman]

What makes you think you're so right, David Henman? Usually you're pretty balanced on issues, but on this one you're really up there on a high horse, looking down on the "barbarians". And sure, we can split hairs on the paraphrasing of your original post, but I think it's pretty clear to everyone that if you describe corporal punishment as "barbaric", it's obviously barbarians that would deal out the punishment. I don't think that conclusion is a stretch by any means.

...perhaps, but it is still your conclusion, not mine.

we can go around and around on this all day, but i am still curious to know why people think that striking a child is a good idea, much less a better idea than seeking a clear understanding between parent and child through verbal communication.

-dh

[The Kicker Of Elves]

Hoo boy, let me add "Spanking" to the list of "Debates to Avoid on the Internet" along with Politics, Religion and Abortion.

We all could go back and forth on this for 50 pages and not settle it. The raising of children is a very personal thing, and two sides are NOT going to see common ground on it.

[david henman]

Hoo boy, let me add "Spanking" to the list of "Debates to Avoid on the Internet" along with Politics, Religion and Abortion.
We all could go back and forth on this for 50 pages and not settle it. The raising of children is a very personal thing, and two sides are NOT going to see common ground on it.

...don't forget guns!

i've never seen one of these debates get "settled". its a learning process, hopefully.

-dh

[Wild Bill]

...perhaps, but it is still your conclusion, not mine.

we can go around and around on this all day, but i am still curious to know why people think that striking a child is a good idea, much less a better idea than seeking a clear understanding between parent and child through verbal communication.

-dh

David, I never once spanked my own daughters but to be honest I've never been sure if that was a mistake, specifically when they were small.

The reason I say this is because when a child is small its brain is not developed enough to properly understand an oral argument. Yet it is vital that the child immediately respond properly to a parent's voice in the advent of danger!

Let me give a "ferinstance" here. Suppose you are trying to get your kids into the car (like trying to herd cats!) and your 4 year old walks onto the street in front of an oncoming car. The first thing you want to happen is for your child to immediately stop when you call to him! Better yet, have him immediately come back! At the very least, he should respond appropriately to give you a chance to retrieve him from the danger.

At that age, is there any point in having a nice "talk" in such situations?

When a child is just developing using a swat or two (NOT indiscriminate walloping!) will immediately make a point that the child will remember. Not as a conscious choice but as a reflex. Until the child has achieved enough years I would think that he CAN"T make such conscious choices!

I differed to my wife's beliefs when the girls were so small but frankly I was often terrified to take them out on the street! My girls DID act as if a loud call was merely a preliminary to a "discussion" and I kept an iron grip on them to make sure they didn't stray into danger. By the time they reached 6 or so it was no longer a problem. They were advanced enough to understand when I explained a danger.

Commanding instant obedience in such situations is the OBLIGATION of a responsible parent! I was lucky that we were never in a scary situation but if heaven forbid one of my children had been hurt or worse you can be certain that I would have not been proud to simply claim that "At least I never spanked them!"

I also find it curious that many advocates against spanking talk as if spanking were synonymous with abuse! I just can't accept that reasoning. Abuse is merely a cruel and violent act. A spanking is a conscious choice as a means to correct a child's behaviour. If one can't see the difference then I don't believe that one could think deeply enough to judge another parent.

What's more, I've been blessed with great kids! I know other parents not so fortunate. Kids are born with differing amounts of talent and brain power. So are parents, for that matter! There are some very obvious failures committing repeated break-ins in my neighbourhood. Would judicious spanking have been applicable in such situations?

I dunno, but what the parents DID do has resulted in obvious failure...

[ne1roc]

Hoo boy, let me add "Spanking" to the list of "Debates to Avoid on the Internet" along with Politics, Religion and Abortion.

We all could go back and forth on this for 50 pages and not settle it. The raising of children is a very personal thing, and two sides are NOT going to see common ground on it.

Ha Ha! Yeah, but these are kinda fun to get into once in awhile.........as long as things don't get nasty, and thankfully it didn't!

It was a great debate guys. Thanks for the fun!

Here's one, Gibson or Fender? None

[david henman]

I also find it curious that many advocates against spanking talk as if spanking were synonymous with abuse! I just can't accept that reasoning. Abuse is merely a cruel and violent act. A spanking is a conscious choice as a means to correct a child's behaviour. If one can't see the difference then I don't believe that one could think deeply enough to judge another parent.


...while perhaps not quite "synonymous with abuse", spanking is, ultimately, the act of a grown adult "striking" a small child. there is no getting away from that.

it would be inappropriate and misguided to classify every episode of spanking as a form of abuse.

on the other hand, it would be foolish to think that every episode is conducted out of love and compassion rather than anger, frustration, getting even, vindictiveness, jealousy or even outright intent to harm.

-dh

[Wild Bill]

...while perhaps not quite "synonymous with abuse", spanking is, ultimately, the act of a grown adult "striking" a small child. there is no getting away from that.

it would be inappropriate and misguided to classify every episode of spanking as a form of abuse.

on the other hand, it would be foolish to think that every episode is conducted out of love and compassion rather than anger, frustration, getting even, vindictiveness, jealousy or even outright intent to harm.

-dh

Ah Dave, it's sad but true that there are plenty of abusers out there!

Are you not gonna take a kick at my points about methods of correction being appropriate to the age/development level of a child?

[david henman]

Ah Dave, it's sad but true that there are plenty of abusers out there!
Are you not gonna take a kick at my points about methods of correction being appropriate to the age/development level of a child?

...i'm just about to head out, wild bill.

i'll have to kick yer ass in the morning.

:tongue:

-dh

[sneakypete]

kick it or.....spank it?

[GuitaristZ]

kick it or.....spank it?
kick + spank = shpwick?

[david henman]

David, I never once spanked my own daughters but to be honest I've never been sure if that was a mistake, specifically when they were small.
The reason I say this is because when a child is small its brain is not developed enough to properly understand an oral argument. Yet it is vital that the child immediately respond properly to a parent's voice in the advent of danger!
Let me give a "ferinstance" here. Suppose you are trying to get your kids into the car (like trying to herd cats!) and your 4 year old walks onto the street in front of an oncoming car. The first thing you want to happen is for your child to immediately stop when you call to him! Better yet, have him immediately come back! At the very least, he should respond appropriately to give you a chance to retrieve him from the danger.
At that age, is there any point in having a nice "talk" in such situations?
When a child is just developing using a swat or two (NOT indiscriminate walloping!) will immediately make a point that the child will remember. Not as a conscious choice but as a reflex. Until the child has achieved enough years I would think that he CAN"T make such conscious choices!
I differed to my wife's beliefs when the girls were so small but frankly I was often terrified to take them out on the street! My girls DID act as if a loud call was merely a preliminary to a "discussion" and I kept an iron grip on them to make sure they didn't stray into danger. By the time they reached 6 or so it was no longer a problem. They were advanced enough to understand when I explained a danger.
Commanding instant obedience in such situations is the OBLIGATION of a responsible parent! I was lucky that we were never in a scary situation but if heaven forbid one of my children had been hurt or worse you can be certain that I would have not been proud to simply claim that "At least I never spanked them!"
I also find it curious that many advocates against spanking talk as if spanking were synonymous with abuse! I just can't accept that reasoning. Abuse is merely a cruel and violent act. A spanking is a conscious choice as a means to correct a child's behaviour. If one can't see the difference then I don't believe that one could think deeply enough to judge another parent.
What's more, I've been blessed with great kids! I know other parents not so fortunate. Kids are born with differing amounts of talent and brain power. So are parents, for that matter! There are some very obvious failures committing repeated break-ins in my neighbourhood. Would judicious spanking have been applicable in such situations?
I dunno, but what the parents DID do has resulted in obvious failure...

...i think your final statement is more accurate.

you raise a couple of interesting points, wild bill.

first off, i think that very small children ARE quite capable of understanding at least the most basic instructions. i have raised two daughters (i had a lot of help!) and now have a 2 1/2 year old grandson and another grandson en route.

my grandson has unbelievable communication skills, in both official languages. but i think he is typical, not above average.

the situation you describe is similar to owning a pet, especially a dog. the number one priority when training a dog is to get it to respond to its name, and to come immediately when called, so that you can prevent it from getting into trouble.

with a child, you had better establish a level of intimate communication. in situations like the one you describe, if your child is in the habit of ignoring you, you are asking for trouble, big time.

again, i cannot help but detect a sense of "failure to communicate" when one has to resort to striking a child in order to get their attention.

when you say that "Kids are born with differing amounts of talent and brain power", are you suggesting that "slower" children may require some form of "physical discipline" as a way of compensating?

-dh

[Wild Bill]

the situation you describe is similar to owning a pet, especially a dog. the number one priority when training a dog is to get it to respond to its name, and to come immediately when called, so that you can prevent it from getting into trouble.

Can't say which I prefer - litterbox or diapers! :eek:


with a child, you had better establish a level of intimate communication. in situations like the one you describe, if your child is in the habit of ignoring you, you are asking for trouble, big time.

Well, again I make a distinction according to maturity. At 2-3 years the problem is having the child UNDERSTAND you!


again, i cannot help but detect a sense of "failure to communicate" when one has to resort to striking a child in order to get their attention.

Again, yell loud enough and any child will look around to see where it's coming from. My worry is will the child react fast enough in a danger situation.


when you say that "Kids are born with differing amounts of talent and brain power", are you suggesting that "slower" children may require some form of "physical discipline" as a way of compensating?
-dh

I'm not sure, David. As is sometimes painfully obvious, I'm a "techie" guy. I think in terms of what works. I have little patience for things that don't appear to actually work, even if it's politically correct to say they do. I was perfectly capable of spanking one of my kids if I thought it was necessary and of positive benefit to them. Mind you, it would have been an "Ol' Yeller" moment. Like having to shoot your own well-loved dog. I'm grateful I never had to do it.

As for "slower" (let's hope someone doesn't seize on that term to drag us off topic) I can only say that we see lots of examples of failure in childrearing all around us. Would spanking have helped? We could comment that parents of such failures would likely not have been prone or capable of using spanking in a positive manner and it would have degenerated into abuse. Then again, when you see obvious failure with a juvenile offender you can't help but wonder if spanking would have prevented it. By that time it's too late.

To further muddy the waters, I'm not sure that's a fair comment on many parents. Is it all a result of the parents' expertise with raising their child?

Are there "bad seeds" and nothing the parents had done mattered?

I do know that spanking has been in disfavour in our society for only a generation or two. Did this mean that everyone born during all the uncountable generations before turned out dysfunctional from having been spanked as a child?

A society may legally ban spanking but who suffers in cases where alternatives didn't work?

Even more chillling, my experiences and observations of the Children's Aid organizations have not always been positive. Can we blindly trust some of these workers to intelligently assess a situation?

As a rightwing reprobate:tongue: I've always believed that if the state has the right to tell you what to do then the state should take 100% of the blame if things go wrong.

[david henman]

Well, again I make a distinction according to maturity. At 2-3 years the problem is having the child UNDERSTAND you!

I do know that spanking has been in disfavour in our society for only a generation or two. Did this mean that everyone born during all the uncountable generations before turned out dysfunctional from having been spanked as a child?

A society may legally ban spanking but who suffers in cases where alternatives didn't work?

Even more chillling, my experiences and observations of the Children's Aid organizations have not always been positive. Can we blindly trust some of these workers to intelligently assess a situation?

As a rightwing reprobate:tongue: I've always believed that if the state has the right to tell you what to do then the state should take 100% of the blame if things go wrong.

...to address just some of your points:

1. it has been my experience that a 2-3 year-old is more than capable of understanding basic english (or whatever language).

2. does arguing that many children "survived" being spanked negate the possibility that there is a more effective and less risky alternative? as societies progress, we are less likely to resort to "physical force" as a problem solver (the US being a prominent exception).

3. the cases where alternatives to spanking "didn't work", to my mind, beg the question. i've yet to see a convincing argument that spanking is better and more effective than the alternatives, especially patience, consistency and communication. i fully understand that brute force is "effective" - administering pain and humiliation will ALWAYS get a child's attention. but what does it "teach" a child beyond "do this and you will get this"? isn't it preferrable, not to mention far more effective in the long term, to teach a child understanding and comprehension?


4. i am no fan of the children's aid society. i believe they are pretty incompetent.

5. i kind of agree, but i think this is an over-simplification. it would be great if we didn't need laws at all, for example. but we do, and we ALL have to follow the SAME laws, for obvious reasons. as you well know, i'm sure, it is always the few who spoil it for the many. i could give you a litany of examples, but i wouldn't be telling you anything you don't know already.

-dh

[lolligagger]

I visit this forum to exchange ideas related to guitars, but my buddy the guitar genius has the following bumper sticker on one of his guitar cases...so I guess this post qualifies:

"Abused Children Grow Into Childish, Abusive Adults"

[Ripper]

Dave you keep talking about humiliation or being humiliated. As someone who was spanked as a child (not often but it was used), I certainly never felt humiliated by it. I do remember though sometimes of feeling very sad afterwards, not because of the sore bottom but because of the look of pain I saw in my fathers eyes when I got spanked (this statement should really open a can of worms). Looking back on it I am sure that it hurt him more than it really hurt me.

I also know that I was such a stubborn hardhead that the normal punishments mostly didn't work (taking away priviledges, heart to heart conversations etc.) My parents were very good at sticking to their guns, carrying through on the punishment and being consistent, but sometimes it just took a couple of good smacks to get my attention and to help me understand that sometimes the results of ones actions can result in more that just a loss of priviledges etc.

On the other side too, I was more scared of Grandma (she was one of those cheek pinchers everytime she saw you...hehhee)

[Ripper]

I visit this forum to exchange ideas related to guitars, but my buddy the guitar genius has the following bumper sticker on one of his guitar cases...so I guess this post qualifies:

"Abused Children Grow Into Childish, Abusive Adults"

I don't believe that a couple of swats on the butt constitutes abuse. I've got friends that came from abusive homes (heads put through walls etc. etc.) and spanking when controlled certainly isn't abuse.

[Lester B. Flat]

I was never spanked as a child so I tend to favor the no spanking side of the debate. My parents were not typical, as my friends have pointed out, in that they never argued in front of me or any of my seven siblings. Not once! In fact my mother told me later that she tried sometimes to argue with my father but he would just wouldn't allow himself to be drawn into it. Just the mere sense of their displeasure (a slightly raised voice) with my behavior would stab me through the heart. They were living examples of proper behavior and we all just did what we were told most of the time. Home was a safe and happy place.

The fact that it was a large family also came into play since the older kids learned first to help set an example for the younger ones. The peer pressure was towards positive behavior.

My father was a photographer and he had a special patience with children. He said that a lot of people would spank their kids for merely being kids. To some adults, bad behavior is anything that isn't adult behavior. He let us be kids unless we were seriously out of line, then we'd get the look and the voice and that would get our attention. Not one of my brothers or myself ever got into fights with other people.

On the other hand, a very close friend of mine whom I have known since highschool had a childhood from hell with psychological, physical and sexual abuse from his mother and older brother. He's very intelligent, has a stable relationship and a strong sense of justice and morality and is vehemently non-violent. Even as I watched him struggle with these problems growing up, I recognized the person inside was a good person.

Whether you are spanked or not does not decide how you are going to turn out and spanking lies in between the two scenarios I've related here, but, if for example you tried merely pushing or slapping an adult you could be facing assault charges. The only legal way to strike an adult is for self defence. Why is it illegal to pick on someone your own size but not a child?