Deluxe Reverb Reissue question.

[nine]

So, I bought a used one last week and got to give it a real go during rehearal today It started out alright, but after an hour to hour and a half I noticed that the sound had gone from the usual chimey/punchy to quite crunchy and substantially less bright sounding. I hadn't changed the volume at all, it stayed at about 3 or so the whole time.

I've never had a tube amp do this on me before and suspect it's because the power tubes need to be replaced and rebiased (and possibly a preamp or two).

Now, the only thing that I know isn't working at it's best is the rectifer tube. When I tried it out in the store I noticed that the rectifier tube was buzzing a little bit when bassy notes were hit and they have a replacement one on order for me. Is it possible that a failing rectifier tube could cause a problem similar to this?

I'd really appreciate some input on this. Thanks. :banana:

[mandocaster]

A failing rectifier tube could get downright ugly! Maybe don't play it until the new one arrives.....

[nine]

A failing rectifier tube could get downright ugly! Maybe don't play it until the new one arrives.....

Yeah, I wasn't planning on it. The tube should arrive this week anyway.

Now, I'm not totally certain it's failing because I'm no expert on tubes, but like I said- it was buzzing like something was loose in it so I assumed it was on its way out.

[nine]

Other than this problem........... what a freakin' fantastic sounding amp. Just beautiful.

[mandocaster]

No argument there.

[nine]

The amp has worked wonders on my sound. It really allows my SG to shine. Tons of definition and none of the muddiness that can sometimes creep into the SG tone when run though a slightly darker sounding amp. My previous amp, the Peavey Classic 30, really did the SG no justice. It did, however, sound great with my Strat, which makes sense because it's a more piano-y sounding guitar to begin with.

Anyway, enough gushing. I'm just glad I bit the bullet and bought the Deluxe Reverb. It's lived up to its own legend and more.

Okay- just a little more gushing. 22 watts? Totally enough to compete with a drummer. We were rehearsing in a small room with three guitarists, a bassist and a fairly loud drummer and there were no problems at all. Volume at 3 the whole time. I have no idea what kind of rocket launch decibel levels some people play at that they think this amp isn't loud enough. And we were quite loud.

Okay, that's really the last of the gushing. Haha. Time for bed.

[mandocaster]

Drool Drool Drool Drool

Wasn't it you with all the handi-wipes a while back?

That's OK, I have a vintage Super Reverb which is a gusher as well.

So what if I have to wear a raincoat when I play.

[nine]

I used to have a Super Reverb. It got stolen while on tour though. That really sucked.

[mandocaster]

Yeah, suckage indeed. My Dean Markley 400B with cab is among the AWOL as well. Odd amp, but super clean at low volumes, great for acoustic instruments.

Sigh.

[Fajah]

Other than this problem........... what a freakin' fantastic sounding amp. Just beautiful.

Agreed, great sounding amp to be sure. I just got one last week from a friend of mine who purchased it last year. It's basically new. The only problem I'm having with it right now is that during a couple of hours of playing time, the sound will cut out once or twice. When it does, flipping the standby switch on and off brings the sound back.

It's been in shop once already for this, but whatever is causing it the problem couldn't be found since it's intermittant and didn't cut out. I will get to the bottom of it though hopefully sooner than later.

Lawrie

[mandocaster]

Sounds as though the standby switch itself might be at fault....it sends the high voltage to the power tubes when turned on, and the sound would cut out if that voltage is interrupted.

[Fajah]

Sounds as though the standby switch itself might be at fault....it sends the high voltage to the power tubes when turned on, and the sound would cut out if that voltage is interrupted.

I'm thinking the same thing. I didn't have a chance to play last night, but I'm going to give it a workout this afternoon for a couple of hours. If it cuts out, before I flip the standby switch, I'm going to plug into all the various channels to see if that has any effect. If the sound is still off, I'm going to check to make sure that all the tubes are lit (as suggested by someone else). Assuming they are, I'm going to flip the switch. If the sound kicks back in, which it has done in the past, then I would say the switch itself may be the culprit. If there's anything else that I should be looking at while the sound is off, please let me know. The more info I can give the tech when I take in for repair, the better.

Lawrie

[Wild Bill]

Sounds as though the standby switch itself might be at fault....it sends the high voltage to the power tubes when turned on, and the sound would cut out if that voltage is interrupted.

Yeah, it could be the standby but this amp is really new. It normally takes a few years for the switch to go wonky.

I just dakked over to SchematicHeaven to refresh my memory of the circuit. From the symptoms described I'm not strong on it being a tube, even the rectifier.

Of course, you should ALWAYS swap in a new tube as the first test! It's quick and easy. Many times I've wasted troubleshooting only to find it was a tube all along. Still, I got a hunch it's something else.

My money's on a bad coupling cap! If a cap goes leaky it lets unwanted high voltage from the previous stage pass through with the signal to the next one. This voltage slowly screws up the action of the next stage.

Caps often will start up fine and then start to leak over the next hour or two. If it happens in the preamp the volume is ok but the tone will go sour.

If you look at the tubes when the amp is screwing up see if the outside plate in the tube has any orange or red glowing spot on it. This is a sign of the bias on the tube being overridden by the leaking cap and the tube is jammed full on and starting to cook itself. If you remove the shields from the preamp tubes you can see the same thing. I'm not talking about the normal heater glow from the top and bottom but the actual outside plate surface that you see through the glass. Remember there are two separate sections in the preamp tubes.

The rectifier doesn't use bias of course but if there's a much bigger than normal current draw its plates can start to glow as well.

If it were on my bench I would put a meter on the bias voltage/output tube grid feed splitter point and let the amp cook for an hour or two. If the voltage won't stay steady that's a sure sign.

The coupling caps are cheap and it wouldn't hurt to "shotgun" change 'em just in case, either. Why charge the player for hours of time checking each individual cap when $10 will eliminate the couplers as suspects in 10 minutes of labour?

The fact that snapping the standby resets the problem is also telling. It resets the charge on a failing cap, letting it start off ok again.

Finally, the re-issue DRs I've seen are not hand wired but rather printed circuit board, as I recall. If so, I'd flip the board over and touch up every solder joint. Printed circuit boards are notorious in tube amps for getting intermittent problems after a few years (like the few years after the warranty is over!). The constant heating and cooling from the tubes causes the solder joints to "flex" as they expand and contract, causing them to go flaky. The board was almost certainly originally soldered by a wave-soldering machine process. You could have a weak solder spot right from the factory that shows up in just a short time.

Now that I've listed the scary stuff, by all means try the tubes first! If it is a tube it's 90% likely to be a 6V6. Preamp tubes only handle signal and don't wear like output tubes. I've seen 50 year old and more 12AX7s still going strong. Often when output tubes get near the end of their life they start up ok and then crap out as they get good and warmed up, just as you describe.

Despite this problem, you chose perhaps the best sounding of all Leo Fender's designs!:rockon:

[Fajah]

Whoa.....that's great info!

Thanks,

Lawrie

[nine]

Finally, the re-issue DRs I've seen are not hand wired but rather printed circuit board, as I recall. If so, I'd flip the board over and touch up every solder joint. Printed circuit boards are notorious in tube amps for getting intermittent problems after a few years (like the few years after the warranty is over!). The constant heating and cooling from the tubes causes the solder joints to "flex" as they expand and contract, causing them to go flaky. The board was almost certainly originally soldered by a wave-soldering machine process. You could have a weak solder spot right from the factory that shows up in just a short time.

This was my guess as well (for Lawrie's problem, not mine). When I was researching the amp, I found a few mentions of people having to get this issue fixed.

[mandocaster]

Whoa.....that's great info!

Bill, your clarity is astounding. :bow:

[nine]

Just to revive this thread, I replaced the rec tube on Saturday and the amp did the same thing on Sunday (less treble and gets more and more crunchy as practice goes on), so I've brought the amp to get retubed and biased. Hopefully that solves it. I'll update the thread after I get the amp back and have another band practice.

[Adicted to Tubes]

The number one problem with tube amps is the tubes(go figure).They don't make them the way they used to in the 50's,but there are some current production tubes that are good.The quality control is the issue these days with tubes being made in Russia and China.
The Reissue Deluxe Reverb is a good sounding amp to be sure,but it has it's faults.One being a quite thin circuit board and the other being the quality of the components on that circuit board.They cut corners to keep costs down and do stuff like using 1/4 watt resistors where 1/2 watt resistors were originally.All to save a few bucks on each amp,and that adds up to bigger profits in volume sales.Numbers crunching at it's best.
But all in all,a far better amp than a Hot Rod Deluxe.
One thing that will bring out the real tones lurking in the Deluxe is the bias.Get your tech to bump up the bias to a reasonable level.The stock bias from the factory is set so it doesn't eat those cheap tubes they put in there.
They actually put some great speakers in those reissues too.I really like the Jensen P12Q in a DR.Nice!But a P12N kills it,if you can believe that!
Your problem sounds suspiciously like a power tube on it's way out.Hope it works out for you.

www.claramps.com

[Fajah]

Just to revive this thread, I replaced the rec tube on Saturday and the amp did the same thing on Sunday (less treble and gets more and more crunchy as practice goes on), so I've brought the amp to get retubed and biased. Hopefully that solves it. I'll update the thread after I get the amp back and have another band practice.

I guess these amps are a work in progress. In the interest of continuing a DRRI thread, since I originally posted my "cutting out" problem, my amp has yet to cut out after a weeks worth of playing. Hopefully it's good thing. Here's some interesting reading on the DRRI that you (and maybe others) might be interested in;

http://waynereno.com/Introduction.htm

Lawrie

[nine]

I guess these amps are a work in progress. In the interest of continuing a DRRI thread, since I originally posted my "cutting out" problem, my amp has yet to cut out after a weeks worth of playing. Hopefully it's good thing. Here's some interesting reading on the DRRI that you (and maybe others) might be interested in;

http://waynereno.com/Introduction.htm

Lawrie

I've seen that site. While the work and results are very admirable, it's not really much of a mod. They built a completely new amp and stuck it into the old shell. Probably cost a small fortune as well.

I'm sure it sounds great though.

[Fajah]

They built a completely new amp and stuck it into the old shell.

True enough. I just liked the fact that a step by step process is illustrated, so if someone decides to do a partial modification, or is having a problem, it could serve as a decent source of information. My situation may be a bit different.

My DRRI was purchased new last year by a close friend of mine. Since he lives in an apartment, he couldn't use it. In the year that it's been there, I don't think there's one hours playing time on it. So now it's at my house to get some use, with the intention of me buying it from him in the next couple of months.

I love the tone...it's to die for, but I'm not sure whether I want to put up with the maintenance. As soon as I put some hours on it, it started cutting out on me, although not frequently. It went in for repair, to which they really couldn't find anything wrong after having it for a week. They just cleaned a few parts here and there based on their experience with this kind of problem. It's been about 2 weeks now, and it's only cut out once....right after it was picked up, but nothing since then.

I still have a couple of months before I have to make a committment to paying for it. Just not sure about it.

Lawrie

[nine]

Tube amps aren't that high maintentance and the DRR isn't any more finicky than any other amp. You've just gotta take that amp into a tech that knows what he's doing and get it fixed once and for all. After that it's just a matter of getting it retubed and biased every once in a while.

Like, my amp having problems isn't because the amp is crappy or anything. It's just that the person before me decided to not retube it since it was bought. Probably because they didn't know better or were cheap. Probably cheap. Haha.

What you have is a problem that needs to be fixed, but it's not representative of tube amps in general. Problems always happen. Just like cars or whatever. And whether it's cars or amps, usually the problems arise because people are too cheap to do the proper maintenance.

[nine]

Oh yeah, and since the amp you currently have is a year old, is it still covered by the Fender warranty? If so, I'd just get it fixed on their tab. :banana:

I should add though, that like cars, it's probably possible to get an amp that's a lemon. Maybe it was built on the Friday of a long weekend. If it seems like that amp just isn't going to work properly, definitely don't buy it.

[Fajah]

Oh yeah, and since the amp you currently have is a year old, is it still covered by the Fender warranty? If so, I'd just get it fixed on their tab. :banana:

I should add though, that like cars, it's probably possible to get an amp that's a lemon. Maybe it was built on the Friday of a long weekend. If it seems like that amp just isn't going to work properly, definitely don't buy it.

Fortunately it is covered by warrantee, so that's a good thing. In addition, I know where it comes from and both my friend and I have bought lots of equipment from the shop that he originally bought it at. All pluses if in fact it turns out to be a lemon. I don't think it is though. And right now, it's working perfectly. Hope it stays that way.

I appreciate your input though. I guess I've just got used to solid state amps over the years, and really, never had to think about whether it's going to work or not. I guess tube amps are an acquired taste :) and if it wasn't for the tone I get from this thing, it would be history already.

Just need something now to add a bit of distortion at low volumes (for those blues licks), since I'll rarely get a chance crank it high enough to break up. Great for jazz though.

Lawrie

[nonreverb]

IMO the best Fender amp....period.

[Adicted to Tubes]

In an ideal world,a PC based amp should be more reliable than a hand wired amp,but it depends on a lots of factors.We live in the real world.:food-smiley-004: The DRRI is a PC based amp that is quite well assembled,but there are lots of things inside that can go wrong.The next thing after tubes is cold solder joints.Because the PC board is 'wave soldered' by a machine,does not mean it's impossible to have a cold solder joint.
As an amp builder myself,I have seen many mass-produced amps that have 'gremlins' such as what you are describing and the owners take them into good techs and they have trouble finding anything wrong.Then they get a label of being incompetent even though they are the best around.
A hand-wired board is easier to find and correct problems on,and it leaves lots of room for higher quality components.The thing is,when an amp is made in a factory and most steps are done by a robot,the quality control becomes the biggest issue.Cost cutting measures are a big concern here.
If you could see the inside of the amp in pieces and compare the components of that PC based amp to an original Fender from 1965,the difference is astounding!
I am not saying the DRRI is junk,because it's not.I'm just saying it can have one of those 'gremlins' that causes one to think otherwise.

But most people who buy a tube amp for the first time,need to realize that any tube amp can have problems.The difference is,hand-wired ones are easier to fix by far.Ask any tech.

[mandocaster]

IMO the best Fender amp....period.

Me and A.T. Tubes Are kinda partial to them ones with 4 ten's....lol

:food-smiley-004:

[Adicted to Tubes]

Hey mando,
How's the 4-10's working for you?
I guess I'm a mamby-pamby boy,but two tens do it for me.None

Guitar god? More like you're dislexic G.O.D. or D.O.G. ?
[/U]www.claramps.com

[mandocaster]

Hey mando,
How's the 4-10's working for you?
I guess I'm a mamby-pamby boy,but two tens do it for me.None

Guitar god? More like you're dislexic G.O.D. or D.O.G. ?
[/U]www.claramps.com

Too many frivilous posts, I guess....

I should be down next week to go H2H with the V-Verb.

[nine]

Well, I got the amp back today, fresh from a bias and some new JJ power tubes. I suppose the proof will be in the band rehearsal pudding on Sunday but even in our condo, the amp sounds quite a bit nicer. The JJ's seem a bit mellower and more musical than the stock Electro Harmonix ones. I can hear some really nice overtones when I strike a chord. Or maybe that was just the mushrooms I took. Kidding! :tongue:

Everything seems to sound a bit nicer and more tonally complex. This amp, combined with my Sparkledrive, Pedalworx McSqueeze and that Townshend SG is blowing my mind. I've never owned equipment that sounded this good before.

[Adicted to Tubes]

The difference in tone may be a combination of two things:one,the quality of the tubes,and two,the bias setting.JJ's from my experience,draw a little more current than the average tube does,making one think they are better sounding.The factory bias settings fender uses tend to be on the cool side to save tubes.When you get the bias current closer to where they are working a little,the tone is better.There is a range that works with every different tube and finding it may require some experimentation.
I like JJ 6V6's a lot.The new tungsol's are good too.There are a few Groove tubes that sound good,but they are not as reliable as JJ's in my limited experience.6V6's can sound so pleasing to the ear when they are in their sweet spot.

www.claramps.com

[nine]

Yeah, I'd read good things about the JJ 6V6s. Seems to hold true in my case as well.