The Advantages of Expensive Amps?

[waynekp]

At some point in the future I want to upgrade my amp, but before I do that I want to try to understand a little more about amps and their values. Awhile ago, I read a thread on here where the poster said he had a budget of approximately $2000 and he wanted to know which guitar he should buy with it. One poster said he would have a much better setup if he bought himself a $1000 guitar and a $1000 amp. Aside from extra power (and volume) what would I gain by buying an amp for $750-$1000 as opposed to $200-$300? I know that at this point, I most certainly don't need the extra power, and as I've only been playing for a year, I still have much to learn, and only really play at home with no band or other instruments or anything.

[greco]

Welcome to the forum.

Nice to see another forum member from the KW area !!

IMHO it mainly boils down to TONE, followed (to some extent) by features. By features I mean having reverb, tremelo, chorus, modeling, effects loop, etc. (this list is almost endless !) Personally, I dislike amps that don't have reverb, to the extent that I bought a reverb pedal because my old tube amp head fromn 1965 doesn't have reverb.

Once you have played through an amp that gives you fantastic tone, you will want to play more and you will very likely enjoy playing moreso, even ifyou are just playing at home at this point in time.

That said, the tone you are looking for will be somewhat specific to the style of music you like to play (e.g., metal, blues, jazz, etc.). Some of your tone can be "created/enhanced" by pedals, but having an amp with the tone you like/want will certainly do wonders.

If you decide to get a tube amp, the cost will typically go up. In addition, the quality (and size... and number) of the speakers will increase the cost.

As you can see, the cost isn't based only on power/volume at all. Also, don't be too fooled by power...15 watts cranked can blow you out of your room !!

I hope this helps a bit. It is 4:20 A.M. and my brain is fried, so I'll leave it to others to comment on what I have written and give you their thoughts/wisdom to ponder.

Cheers

Dave

[Coustfan'01]

Having a good amp can make you sound and play better(seriously) , but when you're starting you may not hear much of a difference. Usually a more expensive amp sounds better than a cheap one , but to be satisfied it must also match your playing style( clasic amps vs high gain , effects , number of channels , etc.)
But you doN't always get what you pay for , and soem expensive amps may not fit your style , and some not too expensive ones(especially used) may do the job really well.

[al3d]

waynekp, give us an idea of what you use right now..gutiar, amp, effect, what type of music you're into playing. Then suggestions will come a lot easier..:)

[KHINGPYNN]

Advantages of an Expensive amp...

Tone... Build Quality... Design/Research/Knowladge... Experience... Features... style and Mojo

In general you get what you pay for... and yes $$$ = tone...

tone is subjective so you will hear every argument in the book. Whats cool is these days even a high end tube amp can be made for considerable less than 10 - 20 years ago. Demand by maufacturers for higher quality components with greater spec tolerances is at a point now never seen before in the industry. Vintage Tube spec is fairly common aswell...

manufacturers have taken basic tried and trued designs and have built upon that resulting truely outrageous performance, reliability, flexibility, features and looks.

we are at a point now where products are being designed is such a way as to appeal to a wide spectrum of taste and have real world practicality.

Look at Soldano... in short he cut his teeth tekking modding amps for what became "big names" in the industry. Hinge then started his own amp line of high quality, awsome sounding, stellar looking amps with extended features and copious MOJO.

That was the 80's... FFW'rd to 200? and the market is flooded with boutique over built militaruy spec hand wired bigdollar amps valve amps that promise tonal divinity... do they deliver... HELL YEAH!

Sharing that market is the technilogical cusp... the digital modelling amp and never forget that not so new kid on the block... the Solid State amp which is still making headlines.

However at this time one has to question... do I really have to spend lots of $$$ to have a great amp.

Hmm... pondering for a milli second here...

NO.

Even a very cool tube amp can be had now for what seem... right now atleast... to be a insanely low cost.

Go to a music store that has a wide selection... try something like say a Soldano or a Fuchs or a Bad Cat... then try a Line 6, a Roland, and finally a Blackheart.

You will see my side of the story then... nothing compares to a Soldano... a Line 6... a Blackheart.

Craig

[konasexone]

Price usually gets you a more flexible amp. It does not necessarily get you a more reliable one. I love the sound of Randall amps but I don't trust them. I've repaired too many of them. I've cracked open plenty of Mesas and they don't impress me either. You often end up paying for the advertisement that lured you to a particular brand. Fender comes to mind.

My bang for the buck favorite right now is the Peavey JSX Satriani head.

[waynekp]

Well, right now, I have a Godin detour electric and a Randall RG15XM amp. I don't have any effects. I picked the guitar last September, and am content with it for the time being, even though I am a big fan of the Les Pauls. About 7 years ago, I tried to teach myself to play the guitar. I had like no money, and the Randall was the cheapest amp I could find at the time. I don't really like the clean tone that I get from it. I like to play rock and classic rock mostly. I have been interested in the Line6's, I think a modelling amp might not be a bad choice, I've also been looking at Vox, but apparently those aren't quite as easy to use. I've also heard that a lot of people on here tend to like the Peavey Valvekings as well. I agree that it's very important to get out and try some of the amps, but I've been trying to figure out why I would pay so much extra for an amp if I don't need more power.

[NB-SK]

Old music store trick: plug the cheap guitar a customer is checking out into an expensive amp.

[Benee Wafers]

I had brought my new Fender Muddy Waters Signature Tele into my music store for a set up. I hadn't really played it thru anything worthy at any voulme . After set up he ran it thru a KOCH ( A great sounding and expensive amp). It sounded wicked man! I said I didn't know the guitar was going to sound that great! He said.... its'the amp man!. To a point I disagree.
Great sounds start at the pick up ( not withstanding necks, woods,pots etc)
Will a great amp make shitty pick ups sound good? IMO prolly not.
Hence your thousand buck guitar and amp theory.
There is no substitute for a great amp. I'm talking tube amps here. Most all will agree you've got to go tube.
For under a thousand look at Traynor. At a thousand look at VOX and Fender.
These serve classic rock and blues very well and are pretty much industry standards.
But in answer to your question definitely yes.... more money in.. better tone and reliability out.
Benee Wafers

[dr_iggi]

Old music store trick: plug the cheap guitar a customer is checking out into an expensive amp.

I sometimes use this trick at home. It works every time! :rockon2:

[Diablo]

To me, one of the often forgotten advantages of an expensive amp is.....resale!
If you dont like it, its easier to sell again second hand, and at closer to what you paid then a cheap amp.
Check craigslist and look at Mesa prices (or other higher end brand/model) and how much less they depreciate vs. a cheap amp.
Same applies to guitars. Everyone that begins thinks they should get the cheapest possible. Makes no sense to me...Good luck trying to get rid of the Robson, Academy or whatever, if you decide you dont like it. Cheap stuff has a less desirable perception, and is thus more likely to become "obsolete". The beginner would be better off buying a $2k Les Paul (financially speaking, anyways).

So, in short, if you can afford it, its a fun way to try new decent gear with minimal risk.

[Robert1950]

He said.... its'the amp man!. To a point I disagree.
Great sounds start at the pick up ( not withstanding necks, woods,pots etc)

Benee Wafers

A $200 guitar will sound better through a $1000 amp, than a $1000 guitar will sound through a $200 amp.

[iaresee]

To me, one of the often forgotten advantages of an expensive amp is.....resale! If you dont like it, its easier to sell again second hand, and at closer to what you paid then a cheap amp.
Hmm...my experience says that demand and perception have more to do with resale value than the price I pay for gear. Case in point: my Koch (which I've taken off the market). I was selling it for way, way, way less than it cost me new and it's an expensive amp. But, relatively unknown, so a risk to most even at $1200.

Check craigslist and look at Mesa prices (or other higher end brand/model) and how much less they depreciate vs. a cheap amp.
Again, a good example of a manufacturer that can be had for much less on the used market. Single and dual rec's sell for 1/2 their new street price. That's not great value retention. Of course: it means you can get Mesa's used for good prices. I got my Rectoverb for about half of street. And sold it for only a little less than I paid for it. So once it's hit a certain point (about $1200 or so), as long as you keep in good shape, it'll sell again for what you paid for it. But you'll lose a fair bit in a Mesa buying it at street and turning it over on the used market.

Same applies to guitars...The beginner would be better off buying a $2k Les Paul (financially speaking, anyways).
Again, I disagree here. I think a beginner would be better buying used than buying new. But I think a $2000 for a beginner is indulgent and unnecessary.

[Budda]

i like high end amps because they deliver the sound i want, with the features i want.

i own a JSX. im lusting after a Brunetti 059. why? the features, the capabilities, and having a handmade quality amp vs a manufactured quality amp.

my amp is great, no doubt about it - after i sunk about $300 into it ;). but it doesnt quite get me "there" 100% of the time, and i'd rather get something that does that more often.

there's also resale - you can buy an amp for a stupid amount of money, and bam.. you're out $500 the second you want to sell it, because that's what all the others are going for.

also, bear in mind that your ear gets better the longer you play and listen to music. when i started out about 9 years ago, i thought my squier through my peavey was the BOMB! i thought i had system of a down distortion nailed! (ibanez iceman into marshall mode 4 halfstack w/ all the studio treatments vs. squier affinity strat into peavey rage 158). after many years of learning about what goes into tone, spending wayyy too much time on guitar forums, and tweaking my setup (as well as buying new gear) i now have a much better idea of how to go about getting a sound that im happy with. i also know that my squier does in fact sound fine and the old peavey doesnt sound half bad either ;).

whats the advantage of an expensive amp, summed up? it does what i want, when i want it to.

[Budda]

Again, I disagree here. I think a beginner would be better buying used than buying new. But I think a $2000 for a beginner is indulgent and unnecessary.

what if that player is of the age where he can afford and appreciate a quality instrument?

one of the guys on another forum started out on a gibson les paul standard into a nice little practise amp. why? because he knew the guitar was a quality guitar that would last, as well as be a joy to pick up every time. he's also a retired police officer ;).

if you have the money to afford great gear vs good gear, i dont see the point in holding back.

who wants to loan me $4K... :banana:

[greco]

This is a cool discussion....lots for you to "ponder" over waynekp.

Dave

[jfk911]

what if that player is of the age where he can afford and appreciate a quality instrument?

one of the guys on another forum started out on a gibson les paul standard into a nice little practise amp. why? because he knew the guitar was a quality guitar that would last, as well as be a joy to pick up every time. he's also a retired police officer ;).

if you have the money to afford great gear vs good gear, i dont see the point in holding back.

who wants to loan me $4K... :banana:


In my opinion if your just starting you may KNOW that this is a high quality instrument and may respect it that way but may not fully understand why. When i started playing i refused to buy an expensive i bought a 300 dollar Ibanez and used it for 5 years then i bought a $1200 and i know for a fact if i started out with the $1200 dollar guitar i wouldn't appreciate as much as i do now. So i dont think going to expensive gear right away is the way to go

[iaresee]

what if that player is of the age where he can afford and appreciate a quality instrument?

one of the guys on another forum started out on a gibson les paul standard into a nice little practise amp. why? because he knew the guitar was a quality guitar that would last, as well as be a joy to pick up every time. he's also a retired police officer ;).

if you have the money to afford great gear vs good gear, i dont see the point in holding back.

who wants to loan me $4K... :banana:
I got asked for an opinion and that's what I gave. Ultimately you spend your hard earned money any way you choose.

[waynekp]

I agree, there have definitely been a lot of information and opinions that I find very interesting. I'm also glad that there have been people who have taken the time to present multiple sides to this discussion. Demand and perception play a huge role in resale prices. Resale prices are ultimately driven by what people are willing to pay, and the perceptions that generate those prices don't need to be accurate. I think as a result of this discussion, I'm definitely going to be considering many more options.

[greco]

I think as a result of this discussion, I'm definitely going to be considering many more options.

I would also suggest that you look at the amps that come up for sale in this forum. Often there are some very nice amps/cabs/speakers at very good prices.

Here is an example:

http://www.guitarscanada.com/Board/showthread.php?t=15333

I'm not related to the seller in any way.

Cheers

Dave

[Diablo]

Hmm...my experience says that demand and perception have more to do with resale value than the price I pay for gear. Case in point: my Koch (which I've taken off the market). I was selling it for way, way, way less than it cost me new and it's an expensive amp. But, relatively unknown, so a risk to most even at $1200.


Again, a good example of a manufacturer that can be had for much less on the used market. Single and dual rec's sell for 1/2 their new street price. That's not great value retention. Of course: it means you can get Mesa's used for good prices. I got my Rectoverb for about half of street. And sold it for only a little less than I paid for it. So once it's hit a certain point (about $1200 or so), as long as you keep in good shape, it'll sell again for what you paid for it. But you'll lose a fair bit in a Mesa buying it at street and turning it over on the used market.


Again, I disagree here. I think a beginner would be better buying used than buying new. But I think a $2000 for a beginner is indulgent and unnecessary.

Actually, I was speaking in terms of buying used (but higher end gear). I dont recall ever saying "new" or BNIB in my post :) I rarely buy anything new.

So to your point, you can still buy, say a mesa rect or what have you, used and sell it for about what you pay for it...same with a decent, used LP. It tends to drop to a certain point after first purchase (maybe 50-70% of new intiial price) , then flatline for a looooong time. Or in the case of guitars, you may even make a few bucks .
Whereas low end stuff, just keeps going down in price until it ends up in a garage sale.
You do raise a good point though, buying high end obscure gear, prob wont hold its value as well if noone is familiar with it. It becomes like a high priced work of art from an artist noones heard of.

As to the notion of a beginner buying good gear, as opposed to cheap stuff, I stand by it, for a second reason as well....that is that good gear may reduce frustration and help the player go up the learning curve faster. Its pretty tough to stay motivated learning the basics when the $150. Robsoin your parents bought from Sears, has messed up intonation, wont stay in tune, and generally feels like crap and sounds almost as good as it feels. Next thing you know, the market is flooded with Robsons and they have the value of a boat anchor.

[nonreverb]

I agree, there have definitely been a lot of information and opinions that I find very interesting. I'm also glad that there have been people who have taken the time to present multiple sides to this discussion. Demand and perception play a huge role in resale prices. Resale prices are ultimately driven by what people are willing to pay, and the perceptions that generate those prices don't need to be accurate. I think as a result of this discussion, I'm definitely going to be considering many more options.

Good post waynekp...

Perception is a key factor here. A lot of high priced amps are that way due to 'brand'. Marshall tube amps for instance, are still fairly high priced...and it's NOT due to their construction. New models such as the JCM2000 are not particularly well built amps.IMO. However, they are still riding the JTM, JMP and JCM 800 perception. You really see what the market will bear when you see them for sale used.

The general standard for amp construction today is not with longevity in mind. Board mounted pots, thin circuit boards and board mounted tube sockets are the norm for many mid priced and some high priced amps. This is not to say that they don't sound good to some. Of course it depends on what you play, how old you are and your budget. My point is that they don't make 'em like they use to.

The boutique amp market is one answer to this. Unfortunately they are, in most cases, expensive and out of reach of the average player.
The proliferation of kit amps available now are a good alternative. They offer good quality builds. Unfortunately options are limited as different options become technically challenging to the layman builder.

[dwagar]

I agree with Diablo's points above. If you buy used, high end gear, chances are it's in good shape and will retain it's value.

The problem for a beginner though, is knowing what he/she wants. Your tastes and style may not be defined yet. Also, as Nonreverb said, for example, just because it says Marshall on the tag, it may not be what you thought you were buying.

[allthumbs56]

I don't think that the OP was so far off in thinking of a Line6, or some other piece of kit that features a lot of different tones. As a new player it's really nice to have a broad palette to experiment with.

My old POD was a great tool for getting to know how a lot of amps/effects sound (approximately).

Something like A Roland Cube may be a perfect next tool.

[konasexone]

i like high end amps because they deliver the sound i want, with the features i want.

i own a JSX. im lusting after a Brunetti 059. why? the features, the capabilities, and having a handmade quality amp vs a manufactured quality amp.

my amp is great, no doubt about it - after i sunk about $300 into it ;). but it doesnt quite get me "there" 100% of the time, and i'd rather get something that does that more often.

there's also resale - you can buy an amp for a stupid amount of money, and bam.. you're out $500 the second you want to sell it, because that's what all the others are going for.

also, bear in mind that your ear gets better the longer you play and listen to music. when i started out about 9 years ago, i thought my squier through my peavey was the BOMB! i thought i had system of a down distortion nailed! (ibanez iceman into marshall mode 4 halfstack w/ all the studio treatments vs. squier affinity strat into peavey rage 158). after many years of learning about what goes into tone, spending wayyy too much time on guitar forums, and tweaking my setup (as well as buying new gear) i now have a much better idea of how to go about getting a sound that im happy with. i also know that my squier does in fact sound fine and the old peavey doesnt sound half bad either ;).

whats the advantage of an expensive amp, summed up? it does what i want, when i want it to.

What did you do to your JSX for three hundred bucks? I've been in the electronics business for 30 years now and handmade does absolutely nothing for the quality of an amp's sound. Printed circuit boards are just as reliable as point to point wiring (if not more so). Both amps use the same components. There are no such things as hand made components. This "hand made" thing is a marketing ploy , a gimmick. I've often found that swapping speakers did the most for my amps.

[Diablo]

i like high end amps because they deliver the sound i want, with the features i want.

i own a JSX. im lusting after a Brunetti 059. why? the features, the capabilities, and having a handmade quality amp vs a manufactured quality amp.

my amp is great, no doubt about it - after i sunk about $300 into it ;). but it doesnt quite get me "there" 100% of the time, and i'd rather get something that does that more often.

there's also resale - you can buy an amp for a stupid amount of money, and bam.. you're out $500 the second you want to sell it, because that's what all the others are going for.

also, bear in mind that your ear gets better the longer you play and listen to music. when i started out about 9 years ago, i thought my squier through my peavey was the BOMB! i thought i had system of a down distortion nailed! (ibanez iceman into marshall mode 4 halfstack w/ all the studio treatments vs. squier affinity strat into peavey rage 158). after many years of learning about what goes into tone, spending wayyy too much time on guitar forums, and tweaking my setup (as well as buying new gear) i now have a much better idea of how to go about getting a sound that im happy with. i also know that my squier does in fact sound fine and the old peavey doesnt sound half bad either ;).

whats the advantage of an expensive amp, summed up? it does what i want, when i want it to.
Maybe in your case, the real solution isnt buying a better "all in one" amp, but 2 different amps mid-grade amps, each having the specific sound you want? I sometimes feel like thats the only way I will be completely happy. A 6505+ for heavy stuff, and something else for cleans, Fender or Line 6 Flextone or something. Shove it all into a rack, and bask in unlimited tone.

[nonreverb]

What did you do to your JSX for three hundred bucks? I've been in the electronics business for 30 years now and handmade does absolutely nothing for the quality of an amp's sound. Printed circuit boards are just as reliable as point to point wiring (if not more so). Both amps use the same components. There are no such things as hand made components. This "hand made" thing is a marketing ploy , a gimmick. I've often found that swapping speakers did the most for my amps.

The general thrust of the industry is to make amps as cheaply as possible while delivering on performance. It's always been like that. The problem in todays world is that cheap construction is just that. Remember, cheap back in the '60's meant point tp point and tube sockets and pots mounted to the chassis. Why? Cause that was where the technology was at the time. They had no alternative.....we do. That's the issue. 5 watt power supply resistors soldered on a circuit board that get hot WILL cause problems in the not too distant future as can circuit board mounted tube sockets and pots. Now I'm not saying all PCB amps are like this but a great many are. Remember many point to point amps are still being played to this day with general maintenance...I wonder how many of todays amps will be still doing their thing in 40 or 50 years?

[shoretyus]

The general thrust of the industry is to make amps as cheaply as possible while delivering on performance. It's always been like that. The problem in todays world is that cheap construction is just that. Remember, cheap back in the '60's meant point tp point and tube sockets and pots mounted to the chassis. Why? Cause that was where the technology was at the time. They had no alternative.....we do. That's the issue. 5 watt power supply resistors soldered on a circuit board that get hot WILL cause problems in the not too distant future as can circuit board mounted tube sockets and pots. Now I'm not saying all PCB amps are like this but a great many are. Remember many point to point amps are still being played to this day with general maintenance...I wonder how many of todays amps will be still doing their thing in 40 or 50 years?

Agreed Rich. My Deluxe is now expected to last another bunch of years after the little maintenance it has had for the last thirty years. But I know that the metal bits are going to still be there then nor melt from heat.

Of course you have the Hammond and Leslie experience. That stuff last a very long time with total neglect. The standard of the day {'60's meant point to point and tube sockets and pots mounted to the chassis} goes on forever and is repairable.

[sysexguy]

I'm the first one to advocate spending big $$$ on a great amp, 2 reasons, 1) it's my business selling great amps and 2) it's also my #1 hobby these days BUT I'd like to address the needs of the original poster.

The criteria a beginning player needs is:

a) the ability to easily interface with the computer and other learning materials in order to learn to play in time and in key

b) the capacity to practice a lot ie. at any hour regardless of spouses, parents, siblings, pets, neighbours etc.

c) a convenient portable solution so that when invited to interact with other musicians, the amp is portable and simple to install.

There are many affordable combos with a line in jack, headphone outs and a vast pallet of sounds and enough power to jam in a basement or at a party. I'd recommend something like this to start off with. Roland, Line6, Vox and many others offer excellent choices and finding a used one for a good deal will not be hard.

Andy

[konasexone]

Repairable is certainly not a desired feature by any manufacturer. They engineer these for a fixed lifespan so they can keep selling, no doubt. I've turned down repairs on numerous products in the last ten years, notably Traynors, because the tear down was next to impossible. Traynor have their own custom rigs to do troubleshooting on these products. If I can't fix it I don't buy it. Line 6 products also fall into this catagory. The most friendly repairable amps had to be the old Twins and Marshalls . That JCM 800 was the best thing going, period. You could do anything with it.

[iaresee]

They engineer these for a fixed lifespan so they can keep selling, no doubt.
Much doubt. A nice conspiracy theory but that's not something that is practiced in electronics manufacture. Mean time to failure will be studied, tracked and understood but the design goals of a layout person sitting at a CAD station drawing vias and traces for a layout is not, never will be, never has been: make it last no longer than X number of years.

I've turned down repairs on numerous products in the last ten years, notably Traynors, because the tear down was next to impossible. Traynor have their own custom rigs to do troubleshooting on these products. If I can't fix it I don't buy it. Line 6 products also fall into this catagory. The most friendly repairable amps had to be the old Twins and Marshalls . That JCM 800 was the best thing going, period. You could do anything with it.
Such is the price for PCB-based manufacturing. There are trade offs on both sides of the build fence. Transients are much easier to control (you can basically get them down to zero) on a PCB-based design. And manufacturing is ultra-consistent. But maintenance can be a real pain if it's part of the design. Similarly, turret or P2P wiring can be nightmarish mess if it's not done by a skilled tech and transients are hard to design out. But maintenance can be a lot easier if you're not having to muck about with PCB mounted parts.

But when either method is employed correctly the end result can be a beautiful thing.

[Hamm Guitars]

I don't get the whole circuit boards are evil thing. Basically just about everything I've ever worked on has been PCB, and other than lifting a pad every now and then, they have never really given me any grief. Surface mount stuff is another story though, I've never really attemted it becase replacement boards have allways been cheap enough.

If your having trouble with PCB's, maybe your soldering iron isn't hot enough? Holding heat on them will lift the traces for sure - you want to melt the solder, wick it up - strighten the leed (or cut any 'hooks' off), heat it up again and pull it out. It might be harder then unsoldering a piece of wire from a post, and a little more time consuming, but not impossible by any stretch.

I work(ed) primarily on PA/Sound gear (consoles, amps and ouboard gear), and I've never seen a PCB as being any problem. PA gear takes alot of abuse from being bounced around, staying in the back of a truck in sub-zero temps and then being loaded into a venue and driven hot, put back into a frozen truck when hot, etc. If PCB's are good enough for that gear (and I still use MX1500's that were built in 1990), it is definately good enough for a guitar amp - especially if the owner takes care of it.

Also, I don't think most players fix their own gear anyway, so why would it ever be an issue for them?

[dr_iggi]

But when either method is employed correctly the end result can be a beautiful thing.

Amen! This should be the definition of a quality amp.

[shoretyus]

Also, I don't think most players fix their own gear anyway, so why would it ever be an issue for them?

Because they are the ones that get to a gig and find it doesn't work.

iaresee....

You don't think that there are people design stuff that makes it only to the warranty? It does exist ... buy some tools .

[mhammer]

1) A great many modest-priced amps are based on the extensive R&D already invested in by boutique makers (or by the company themselves), simply converted to higher-volume production methods.

2) Stuff is expensive when you can't buy the components themselves cheaply. Find or develop a cheap source of things like transformers, tubes, speakers, cabinets, chassis, and the price drops dramatically.

3) Almost everybody turns out a cheaper product these days, from Fender to Marshall to Carvin to Soldano, etc., etc.

4) What makes pricier amps that much pricier is the need to build and tweak them separately. The advantage in terms of quality and sound may only be marginal, but that doesn't obviate the need for more labour-intensive build methods. I'm reminded of "Wilensky's" in Montreal where for decades you could buy this legendary mixed cold-cut sandwich widely known as "The Special". For as long as anyone could remember, it came with mustard and cost 2 cents more if you DIDN'T want mustard, simply because it broke Moe Wilensky's concentration to stop n the middle of the lunch rush and make one without mustard. DO NOT equate added cost with a necessary and proportional leap in sonic quality: sometimes price simply reflects the degree of corporate disruption involved.

5) PCBs are not a problem. never have been and never will be. Thin, cheap PCBs, with thin traces and poor layout ARE a problem; always have been and always will be. Know the difference.

6) Anything that ups the current requirements, heat dissipation needs, etc., will up the price. You can squeeze 40-50W out of a power-amp chip pretty easily. If you want to squeeze it out of a pair of 6L6 tubes, that costs a little more, but needn't be THAT costly. If you want to squeeze a couple more nimonal watts out of a pair of 6L6 tubes using an exotic plate voltage, then you need to be pickier about WHICH 6L6 equivalents you use, and will need to get a different transformer custom made ($$$), but it will be relatively efficient and the heat dissipation will be less of a problem. If you want to crank out 30W of Class A power, then you'll need a heftier supply (because Class A is much less efficient), and the chassis will involve substantially greater cost because of the number of tubes involved and the need to space things out so as to dissipate the heat generated. Sometimes, the production costs of some seemingly simple differences can be much larger than you'd think.

7) Some pricier amps cost more because they are designed for maintenance and ease of service. Two summers back, I was fortunate enough to be invited backstage at Sheryl Crow's show by a buddy working as a guitar tech for her, and was introduced to Peter Stroud, her principle guitar player. My buddy had e-mailed me before they got to town and asked if I had some mica caps on me that he could score, and I happily provided them.

Stroud is part owner of the 65 Amps company. Some 90 minutes before stage-time, he had opened up the amp, was sitting stage-side, soldering iron in hand, and was replacing the caps on the bright function on the amp with the ones I had brought him, confident that he could make the change, reassemble the amp, and get it back to its position in the backline with enough time to throw a bit of dinner into himself and regain his composure. Now THAT's an amp made for servicing. Naturally, it costs a little more because of the planning and design (and parts) that went into it.

[Milkman]

Sorry to pee in the pool, but I see a few posts citing "features" as a motivation to buy high end amps.

Funny, many of the high end amps I see have very little in the way of features. Often they have a volume, and one or two eq controls and that's it.

Really I think what you're payng for (beyond prestige and status) is the cost to manufacture in antiquated ways. Point to point wiring takes forever compared to pc boards on an assembly line. Yes, you can (or should anyway)expect top quality materials as well but that doesn't begin to address the gap between a $500. amp and a $2500 amp with similar power and features.

Hand work costs a fortune in North America.

I'm not going to get into whether it's worth it or not. My flame suit is at the cleaners.

[Hamm Guitars]

Because they are the ones that get to a gig and find it doesn't work.


I see where you are comming from, but I don't understand where the ease of the repair has anything to do with an amp's reliability.

I know guys that have the Harley Davidson's of amplifiers, but they know how to keep them running. They are always fixing something, or something doesn't quite work right. I don't think that these 'easy fix' amps are what I would call reliable - especially if the owner doesn't know how to fix them on their own.

Like others have said a poorly built product is just that. I've seen some pretty thin PCBs in my time, but I wouldn't say that all PCBs are bad and should be avoided.

Sooner or later, everything breaks down. If your touring you should have a backup.

[sysexguy]

Not peeing in the pool at all, more like replacing the 2 prong power cord with proper 3 prong one. Good call

One really should have a great idea of what sound one is looking for before spending big bucks because most high end amps are not jack of all trade machines (although many make this claim). They actually react quite differently to different styles and guitars and especially to the finger tone of individual players.

An internet recommendation, star endorsement or mp3 demo file may give an idea but shouldn't be the basis of your investment (without trying for yourself). The # of f/s listing on GP, HRI and HC etc. etc. is be a good indicator that most people do not follow this tidbit of advice.

Andy

[iaresee]

iaresee....

You don't think that there are people design stuff that makes it only to the warranty? It does exist ... buy some tools .
I don't think, I know. Warranties, at least from big companies, are set after the product is designed and the MTTF is understood. A designer isn't sitting at their desk going: "gee, how can I ensure this fails after it's existed for exactly two years?" A tester is running their design through its paces noting when failures occur and a little statistical analysis gets applied to those test results to determine the warranty period. The longer a company has been around designing the same products, the better their statistical guesses.

And smaller companies just do warranties that either: a) give them a competitive advantage (lifetime warranty, 5 years transferrable, etc.) by selling value add; or b) guess and hope they guessed correctly.

No engineer or CAD designer is trained in how to make things fail after X amount of time.

[mhammer]

Uli Behringer is on record as saying that he strives to provide the most features for the lowest cost. So, a Bugera amp is going to have every bell and whistle conceivable. Will it sound as good as a Dr. Z or Carr or Trainwreck that has only a couple of knobs, no convenience outlet, no channel switching, no reverb, no boost function, etc.? Probably not, but it will do a LOT of things. Will it hold up well to touring and being bashed around or taking on strange line voltages in other countries? Maybe not, but it WILL do a lot of things. Will it get you that sound you've been hearing in your head? Maybe not, but it WILL do a a lot of things.

One of the things I learned buying children's clothing is that if you want a shirt that is simply a solid colour, and doesn't have pictures of WWF characters, videogame characters, Disney crap, movie crap, bizarre phrases, or product placement of any kind, you often have to spend more, not less.

Check out the Visual Sound Workhorse amps. These seem to be a nice compromise between cost and professional quality.

[caaustin02]

Hi Waynekp:

Welcome to the forum.
You are in a good spot, if you have a new hunger to get good on the guitar, use your small practice amp for now, and really listen to other guitars players recorded and live. The most important thing is to find a tone that really inpires you, and that will really make you pick up your guitar and not want put it down.

The task is on you to test as many amps as possible, that is something almost every player never gets tired of. Don't bother with brand, or contruction, although both influence price. If you find something you really like, but it is $1000 over your range, move on; your search will still be successful - it will just take longer. I didn't mention features or power because I think that is defined by the tone you are chasing.

Take everybody's elses opinion with a grain of salt. Everybody thinks that they have the best gear. Maybe the need to convince others to buy our gear justifies our purchases - who knows? I think I have the best sounding amp in the world, but you might hear it and probably disagree. That said, a forum like this is great resource for pointing yourself in the right direction when you start your broad search.

My two cents:
1. Products are almost never (never say never) designed with repair labour dollars in mind. That is way too complicating. Component life, material reduction, and shipping weight is very important in the design. In other words, the cheapest components are used to get the job done. The nightmare of repair comes from using the least amount of materials possible because the space is so tight, also this brings the shipping weight down as well. Assembly line robot fingers can fit in places human fingers can't.

2. I have two versions of the same amp built at the same factory about 6 years apart. One uses turret boards, and the other uses a PC board (albeit a very thick PC board) type construction. Practically identical tone can be had from both amps, and neither has ever failed and have been maintained every couple of years.

[satch09]

You don't have to go expensive, that said keep in mind, sometimes more expensive amps last longer, and are more reliable, but amps with all sorts of gadgets and affects mean there's more things that will likely go wrong. However the only reason I like using amp affects is for recording, but its not very practical to have all these built in effects to play live, because then you either have to buy a foot switch or look like an idiot and walk over to your amp every time you need to change in effect. The money you would save on an amp without tons of effects would be enough to be a good effects processor which will give you the same and then some. As for tone, as everyone says its subjective, so whatever you like, and the only way to tell is to try them out

[nonreverb]

Uli Behringer is on record as saying that he strives to provide the most features for the lowest cost. So, a Bugera amp is going to have every bell and whistle conceivable. Will it sound as good as a Dr. Z or Carr or Trainwreck that has only a couple of knobs, no convenience outlet, no channel switching, no reverb, no boost function, etc.? Probably not, but it will do a LOT of things. Will it hold up well to touring and being bashed around or taking on strange line voltages in other countries? Maybe not, but it WILL do a lot of things. Will it get you that sound you've been hearing in your head? Maybe not, but it WILL do a a lot of things.

One of the things I learned buying children's clothing is that if you want a shirt that is simply a solid colour, and doesn't have pictures of WWF characters, videogame characters, Disney crap, movie crap, bizarre phrases, or product placement of any kind, you often have to spend more, not less.

Check out the Visual Sound Workhorse amps. These seem to be a nice compromise between cost and professional quality.

Lets not venture into the Behringer zone..I work part time at a music store and the very mention of the name strikes 'return' fear into most sales people where guitar and bass amps are concerned....and so it should. They may be cheap but you get what you pay for.
There are new PCB amps which are easier to service than others. The one that comes to mind are Fender tube amps. Here at the Bluesfest, all the backline is provided by Fender, Yamaha and Ampeg. I have been the backline tech for it for over 9 years and I have seen them on for hours at a time in 30+ degree temperatures on full tilt. Every once and a while a tube will pack it in but thats about it. As a rule, they are straight forward to service. Many times on site. Of course one could argue that because they're brand new that they should be able to handle it and that's true to a point.
But IMO I'd rather have them out there than some of the other offerings on the market when servicing and reliabililty are considered.

[mhammer]

I will leave the B-zone alone.:smilie_flagge17:

The things that can add to or reduce the cost of an amp are numerous. There are plenty of smaller amps that reduce the front to back depth of the cab by an inch or two, compared to what they might have. That, in turn, reduce the overall volume of the cab, and increases the resonant frequency enough to rob the amp of any guts. So, why do it? Simple. It can easily reduce the cost of materials required, and a) decrease the shipping weight and related costs, as well as b) increase the number of units that you can stuff into a shipping container. In the world of low-end, low profit-margin amps, those things matter. Omit them, and pretty soon you either aren't making any money, or else you have to move into another price point and design THOSE competitors.

Happily, there are a number of companies that make respectable amps at reasonable cost. You may not think that Crate, Peavey, or Laney compare with higher-end stuff but they turn out a respectable product.

[shoretyus]

The longer a company has been around designing the same products, the better their statistical guesses.

No engineer or CAD designer is trained in how to make things fail after X amount of time.

No that's where on the job training comes in:wave:..

The CAD monkeys are the ones saying this part will work, we can get ( outsourced) cheap, etc etc.

Of course I was targeting general crap ... not really amps specifically.

[Hamm Guitars]

All of the Behringer stuff I've owned or opened up was surface mount and therefore disposable.

I haven't had the greatest of luck with Behringer products as far as quality goes, but they are definately cheap.

Alto is another company that makes cheap disposable gear.

Lets not venture into the Behringer zone..I work part time at a music store and the very mention of the name strikes 'return' fear into most sales people where guitar and bass amps are concerned....and so it should. They may be cheap but you get what you pay for.
There are new PCB amps which are easier to service than others. The one that comes to mind are Fender tube amps. Here at the Bluesfest, all the backline is provided by Fender, Yamaha and Ampeg. I have been the backline tech for it for over 9 years and I have seen them on for hours at a time in 30+ degree temperatures on full tilt. Every once and a while a tube will pack it in but thats about it. As a rule, they are straight forward to service. Many times on site. Of course one could argue that because they're brand new that they should be able to handle it and that's true to a point.
But IMO I'd rather have them out there than some of the other offerings on the market when servicing and reliabililty are considered.

[iaresee]

No that's where on the job training comes in:wave:..

The CAD monkeys are the ones saying this part will work, we can get ( outsourced) cheap, etc etc.

Of course I was targeting general crap ... not really amps specifically.
You bet man. That's exactly how it is. You know, it reminds me very much of the way cabinetmakers pass on the secrets of strategically weakening their installations, so they fail just outside of warranty, to their apprentices. ;)

[greco]

Hey waynekp...did you ever think that your thread would evolve into this level/length/direction of discussion?

Cool thread.

Dave

[greco]

Hi Waynekp:

really listen to other guitars players recorded and live. The most important thing is to find a tone that really inpires you, and that will really make you pick up your guitar and not want put it down.

The task is on you to test as many amps as possible, that is something almost every player never gets tired of. Don't bother with brand, or contruction, although both influence price. If you find something you really like, but it is $1000 over your range, move on; your search will still be successful - it will just take longer. I didn't mention features or power because I think that is defined by the tone you are chasing.

Take everybody's elses opinion with a grain of salt. Everybody thinks that they have the best gear. Maybe the need to convince others to buy our gear justifies our purchases - who knows? I think I have the best sounding amp in the world, but you might hear it and probably disagree. That said, a forum like this is great resource for pointing yourself in the right direction when you start your broad search.



I second the advice that caaustin02 is giving here.

Well written IMHO.

Dave

[Budda]

this thread is a good read :)

[shoretyus]

You bet man. That's exactly how it is. You know, it reminds me very much of the way cabinetmakers pass on the secrets of strategically weakening their installations, so they fail just outside of warranty, to their apprentices. ;)

Na we don't do that. Of course I don't have any apprentices either.

[mrmatt1972]

Wow, great thread!

I'm of the opinion that quality used gear is the best way to spend your money if you are short on cash. With tube amps this is especially relevant. That being said, you don't need to spend a fortune on a used tube amp because there are tonnes of "sleeper" amps out there that sound great and were well made but don't have the brand recognition of Mesa, Fender or Marshall.

Some of the great but cheap used tube amps I've been fortunate enough to own are:

Laney AOR (Amazing, gut shaking 80s metal tone and a good clean)
Legend Rock 'n Roll II (solid state power, tube pre -really loud!!)
Peavey Rock Master preamp (a new acquisition lofu)
Traynor YGL-3A ("Traynor Twin" RIP :frown:)
Ram low watt no name amp (made by Garnet)
Traynor YCV40 (still in production - highly recommended)

Other sleeper amps include Garnet (CSA # LR24510 identifies the silkscreen amps like my Ram), Silvertone, Danelectro and numerous others.

Of course, if you have the cash boutique amps will rarely disappoint, but are often one trick ponies. I doubt I could ever justify 3000+ dollars for an amp, my ears just aren't that good. My 180 dollar Blackheart sounds great to me...

[nonreverb]

Wow, great thread!

I'm of the opinion that quality used gear is the best way to spend your money if you are short on cash. With tube amps this is especially relevant. That being said, you don't need to spend a fortune on a used tube amp because there are tonnes of "sleeper" amps out there that sound great and were well made but don't have the brand recognition of Mesa, Fender or Marshall.

Some of the great but cheap used tube amps I've been fortunate enough to own are:

Laney AOR (Amazing, gut shaking 80s metal tone and a good clean)
Legend Rock 'n Roll II (solid state power, tube pre -really loud!!)
Peavey Rock Master preamp (a new acquisition lofu)
Traynor YGL-3A ("Traynor Twin" RIP :frown:)
Ram low watt no name amp (made by Garnet)
Traynor YCV40 (still in production - highly recommended)

Other sleeper amps include Garnet (CSA # LR24510 identifies the silkscreen amps like my Ram), Silvertone, Danelectro and numerous others.

Of course, if you have the cash boutique amps will rarely disappoint, but are often one trick ponies. I doubt I could ever justify 3000+ dollars for an amp, my ears just aren't that good. My 180 dollar Blackheart sounds great to me...

Definitely! Laneys were great. Another sleeper is Sound City loaded with Partridge transformers, these were well built amps that sounded cool too.
Although, I suspect these are beginning to get more $ due to their early association with Dave Reeves of Hiwatt fame.

[iaresee]

Na we don't do that. Of course I don't have any apprentices either.
Sure you do. :smile:

(See what I'm getting at here? We don't purposely design in failure in electrical design either.)

[shoretyus]

Sure you do. :smile:

(See what I'm getting at here? We don't purposely design in failure in electrical design either.)

Great design me an MP3 player that will last more than a year!!!

We are getting totally off topic here.

BUT you got me going ... a little. Though as you say "we" don't design for failure we are subject to having use other peoples poor designs. Though not designed to fail are just bad. The "european " hinges and the 32mm system in general makes me cringe. It's changed kitchen industry like the amp industry. Something that is designed TO move WILL move. Take a look at YOUR cabinets.

Or the cost cutting and highly computerized factories churning out crappy veneered plywood. But what can I do ... I have to use stuff that is not flat smooth and ready to finish.

You can't manufacture everything any more.

There a point in design that meets a good balance between function and repair. A high point say ........ Fender Deluxe, Leslie amps and Chevy Novas come to mind.

Some times there's no point to the design.

[Hamm Guitars]

There a point in design that meets a good balance between function and repair. A high point say ........ Fender Deluxe, Leslie amps and Chevy Novas come to mind.


+1 on the Chevy Nova. In 1987 ( I was 17) I was hit by a train while driving a 1979 Nova SS (ran the light and jumped the tracks) - I had 3 passengers in the car with me at the time.

The train clipped the rear bumper and spun us around and we landed hard on the other side. I started the car again (why do cars stall when you do things like that to them?) and high tailed it out of there. The car was dog tracking real bad, but I dropped of 3 live passengers and made it home.

The car had serious rear end damage and the rear tires had the treads nearly torn off from the twisted force of the landing, but no injuries. The car was beyond repair though.

[bagpipe]

+1 on the Chevy Nova. In 1987 ( I was 17) I was hit by a train while driving a 1979 Nova SS (ran the light and jumped the tracks) - I had 3 passengers in the car with me at the time.

The train clipped the rear bumper and spun us around and we landed hard on the other side. I started the car again (why do cars stall when you do things like that to them?) and high tailed it out of there. The car was dog tracking real bad, but I dropped of 3 live passengers and made it home.

The car had serious rear end damage and the rear tires had the treads nearly torn off from the twisted force of the landing, but no injuries. The car was beyond repair though.


And how about your underwear? Beyond repair also? :eek:

[Hamm Guitars]

And how about your underwear? Beyond repair also? :eek:

Pretty much. When we landed I was afraid to turn around and look at the back seat as I was sure someone must have been killed. Everyone was real quiet and when I turned and looked at them they were white as ghosts.

Everyone was real sore the next day.

[mhammer]

On a more pleasant note...

Never overlook the role that speaker choice plays. There are SO many "also-rans" in the world of amps, where the product was issued with a speaker that was just a really poor choice. A great many amps can be improved considerably, for the cost of investing in a couple of better-suited speakers. Remember that the difference between more expensive and cheaper amps often includes the musical experience and thought put into the components combined to make the amp, not just the professionalism of the construction. My buddy RG Keen, who designs for Visual Sound, wrote to me a couple years ago when he was getting the Chinese production facility started on the Workhorse series of amps that, much to his surprise, the biggest initial hurdle was the cabs, not the amplilfication part. The guys putting them together were engineers not musicians, and simply had no ear for tone, and how the whole thing fits together. He had to go over there and teach them about tone. I imagine that scenario plays out many times over, whether the production facility is located in China, Japan, Korea, Poland, Germany, or Italy. Having a sense of what you're aiming for tonally and musically, and then aligning all the elements together to nail it, is not something that everyone making amps can necessarily do. It can happen that a reasonably-priced amp has almost everything it needs, but is simply lacking a few small changes that the tonally-experienced could easily identify, but the jobber can't.

Note that I didn't say "better" speakers but rather "better-suited". That means that they should complement the cab properties, complement your guitar and style, and dovetail with the anticipated power range nicely. That doesn't necessarily have to cost a fortune. It just has to be a good choice.

[nonreverb]

On a more pleasant note...

Never overlook the role that speaker choice plays. There are SO many "also-rans" in the world of amps, where the product was issued with a speaker that was just a really poor choice. A great many amps can be improved considerably, for the cost of investing in a couple of better-suited speakers. Remember that the difference between more expensive and cheaper amps often includes the musical experience and thought put into the components combined to make the amp, not just the professionalism of the construction. My buddy RG Keen, who designs for Visual Sound, wrote to me a couple years ago when he was getting the Chinese production facility started on the Workhorse series of amps that, much to his surprise, the biggest initial hurdle was the cabs, not the amplilfication part. The guys putting them together were engineers not musicians, and simply had no ear for tone, and how the whole thing fits together. He had to go over there and teach them about tone. I imagine that scenario plays out many times over, whether the production facility is located in China, Japan, Korea, Poland, Germany, or Italy. Having a sense of what you're aiming for tonally and musically, and then aligning all the elements together to nail it, is not something that everyone making amps can necessarily do. It can happen that a reasonably-priced amp has almost everything it needs, but is simply lacking a few small changes that the tonally-experienced could easily identify, but the jobber can't.

Note that I didn't say "better" speakers but rather "better-suited". That means that they should complement the cab properties, complement your guitar and style, and dovetail with the anticipated power range nicely. That doesn't necessarily have to cost a fortune. It just has to be a good choice.

Absolutely! Probably the single most tone changing element within any amp. Remember, it all passes through the speaker no matter what guitar, tubes or pedals you're using...

P.S. 3 cheers for the Leslie amp...one of the best designed amps ever IMO!!

[caaustin02]

On a more pleasant note...

Never overlook the role that speaker choice plays. There are SO many "also-rans" in the world of amps, where the product was issued with a speaker that was just a really poor choice. A great many amps can be improved considerably, for the cost of investing in a couple of better-suited speakers.

mhammer has a really good point above.

A couple of co-workers just bought the Fender Super Champ XD, and both have said the amp with a single coil guitar sounds pretty good, but when a guitar with humbuckers (or just hot pickups in general) is used the original speaker sounds farty, as if there was too much speaker breakup. A simple speaker switch satisfied both of the players. The Super Champ, by the way is a $300 15 Watt amp that just rocks - which explains why there is a 7 week back-order at Long and Mcquade.

[KHINGPYNN]

This is true... tone is subjective speaker choice can be the difference between good and great tone.

The Koch Multitone I own comes with Koch/Jensen speakers... a nice speaker if you like dark/flat responce/aggressive... if I run the Koch thru a set of Greenbacks it's tone improves on channel 1 and 2 to my ears... Vintage 30's result in better tones from channel 3. The K/J speakers seem to be middle of the road to the other two.

As for speakers the most impressive for me thus far is the Eminance Super V.
Which are based on an older Fane speaker.

There is a really unique balance between sweet and aggressive with these speakers.

[Budda]

$140 for 4 new speakers into my slant cab, and my JSX now does good high gain metal :).

not great though.. gotta work on that..

[hoser]

"The Advantages of Expensive Amps? "

Bragging rights and impressing people online or other gear dorks.


Seriously....just go try out a bunch of amps with your favorite guitar and buy the one you like most.

[Budda]

"The Advantages of Expensive Amps? "

Bragging rights and impressing people online or other gear dorks.



naw, that's just a perk! ;)

[KHINGPYNN]

Originally Posted by hoser
"The Advantages of Expensive Amps? "

Bragging rights and impressing people online or other gear dorks.


naw, that's just a perk! ;)


It may be a perk but now I'm gonna have to watch what I say when talking about high end amps... some ppl may think I'm being pretentious when all I'm really doing is taliking about something I enjoy.... kinda takes the fun out of it now does'nt it...largetongue

[hoser]

If anyone couldn't tell, I was joking, somewhat.

[Milkman]

If anyone couldn't tell, I was joking, somewhat.

LOL, and yet.....


Yeah, I just bought the new Siznick Sizzler. It was hand carved out of a solid block of aluminum and will only run on pre war electricity. Picked it up in my Hummer. It ONLY works with guitars that cost $2500 and up. Plug a cheapo MIM Start into it and ...nothing.

[nonreverb]

LOL, and yet.....


Yeah, I just bought the new Siznick Sizzler. It was hand carved out of a solid block of aluminum and will only run on pre war electricity. Picked it up in my Hummer. It ONLY works with guitars that cost $2500 and up. Plug a cheapo MIM Start into it and ...nothing.

That's cause you don't have the Driftwood IV guitar adaptor :rockon:

[mrmatt1972]

LOL, and yet.....


Yeah, I just bought the new Siznick Sizzler. It was hand carved out of a solid block of aluminum and will only run on pre war electricity. Picked it up in my Hummer. It ONLY works with guitars that cost $2500 and up. Plug a cheapo MIM Start into it and ...nothing.

I gotta get me some of that pre-war electricity!!:rolleyes:

[mhammer]

That's cause you don't have the Driftwood IV guitar adaptor :rockon:
No. It's because you need to have pure Alnico 5 strings. Sheesh! I don't know where these rumours get started. H-C forum, maybe? Honestly, they let just about anybody on the net these days!:rolleyes:

On a more serious note, sometimes the really pricey amps do things that others can't. This buddy who techs for Sheryl Crow's band, Foo Fighters, and others, has the opportunity to try out a lot of nice gear. Last time he came through town, he mentioned that he had tried out a Trainwreck, and that now it would be his life's mission toget himself one...it was THAT good.

Of course, as good as the Trainwrecks were/are, the price was a reflection of the late Ken Fischer's inability to produce very many due to the health issues that eventually felled him. I think one needs to distinguish between amps that are very high-priced because the maker can't produce very many and still needs to make their rent/mortgage/alimony payments, and those that are produced using more efficient methods but are higher priced because of other factors. Then there are the Dumbles of the world where health is not the issue, but personality quirks are. Whatever the source, one needs to understand that price often reflects what the maker needs to earn from the product, not what the product is necessarily "worth". If I can make 20 amps a year, and I have no health coverage provided for me by an employer, then those puppies have to bring in a lot of money. They may be only marginally better than somethng costing a mere fraction, but the maker is in no position to say "It's only about 10% better so I'll charge 10% more".

[KHINGPYNN]

It may be a perk but now I'm gonna have to watch what I say when talking about high end amps... some ppl may think I'm being pretentious when all I'm really doing is taliking about something I enjoy.... kinda takes the fun out of it now does'nt it...largetongue


If anyone couldn't tell, I was joking, somewhat.

No worries here I was simply replying with an equal amount of sarcasm... hence the largetongue

[hoser]

I figured, heh, just didn't want to deal with anyone who didn't catch it.

[Mooh]

The advantages should be tone, friendliness to all input variations (pickup types, effects, preamps, etc), versatility, repairability, durability, ease of use...but some of these things might not be.

Frankly, for any buck I find my Traynors hard to beat, though I've enjoyed some pretty pricey high end amps. Beyond a point it's like comparing apples and oranges, they're all good, just different.

Peace, Mooh.

[Budda]

im half tempted to pick up a used YCS100H to go with my JSX, if i can find one.

or sell the JSX for the YCS100.. depends entirely on the high gain channel of the traynor after putting in the JJ KT77 standard kit, and running it through my cab w/ my boost pedal.

[torndownunit]

Expensive doesn't always mean the best option. I can't say enough about how fantastic I think vintage Ampegs sound. And they are still 'under the radar' on the vintage market and can be had for a steal. They are incredibly well built too. Same can be said about vintage Traynors. Some models are going up in price, but you can still get models like the YBA2 for a great price.

[nonreverb]

BF or early SF Fenders. Easy to fix, easy to use and they sound damn good!:rockon:

[Milkman]

No. It's because you need to have pure Alnico 5 strings. Sheesh! I don't know where these rumours get started. H-C forum, maybe? Honestly, they let just about anybody on the net these days!:rolleyes:

On a more serious note, sometimes the really pricey amps do things that others can't. This buddy who techs for Sheryl Crow's band, Foo Fighters, and others, has the opportunity to try out a lot of nice gear. Last time he came through town, he mentioned that he had tried out a Trainwreck, and that now it would be his life's mission toget himself one...it was THAT good.

Of course, as good as the Trainwrecks were/are, the price was a reflection of the late Ken Fischer's inability to produce very many due to the health issues that eventually felled him. I think one needs to distinguish between amps that are very high-priced because the maker can't produce very many and still needs to make their rent/mortgage/alimony payments, and those that are produced using more efficient methods but are higher priced because of other factors. Then there are the Dumbles of the world where health is not the issue, but personality quirks are. Whatever the source, one needs to understand that price often reflects what the maker needs to earn from the product, not what the product is necessarily "worth". If I can make 20 amps a year, and I have no health coverage provided for me by an employer, then those puppies have to bring in a lot of money. They may be only marginally better than somethng costing a mere fraction, but the maker is in no position to say "It's only about 10% better so I'll charge 10% more".


When one builds only 20 amps a year, it's because they choose to do so. I can see no merit to using inefficient and antiquated production methods. Yes it will result in a more expensive amp. No it will almost certainly not result in a better amp.

Dumbles, Trainwrecks and other prohibitively expensive boutique amps have been cloned by many people with very good results. I'd say the design and the materials are the key. Building it by candle light using your great grand daddy's tools are not.

[KHINGPYNN]

design and materials are the key... a good dose of experience is also very helpful... and do not forget workmanship... a bad solder joint can take down the whole unit.

Take the whole PCB vs point to point... turret board ( all that gobblygook ) debate... sure hand wired is a very good design but don't swear off PCB because it has a bad side in the mass production industry. PCB is every bit as toneful when done right as a P to P or Turret board. All methods require good design and top notch materials with solid experience to back it up. Make a couple of bad moves in a P to P cct and you will end up with an unfavorable end result.

I hate to say it but... I've serviced most of the major brands of amps... Peavy, Randall, Traynor, Crate, Fender, Marshall, etc... the mass production low cost amps tend to have inherant issues... simple issues that can cause big problems... bad solder joints, loose connections due to bad terminals... these terminals are usually of poor quality, poor designe... usually lay out, cheap components... look at the pots??? Things are getting beter though with better quality coming in at lower prices.

Not ranting for the sake of it... I own a Randall.

[Budda]

What did you do to your JSX for three hundred bucks? I've been in the electronics business for 30 years now and handmade does absolutely nothing for the quality of an amp's sound. Printed circuit boards are just as reliable as point to point wiring (if not more so). Both amps use the same components. There are no such things as hand made components. This "hand made" thing is a marketing ploy , a gimmick. I've often found that swapping speakers did the most for my amps.

i see i was asked a question that i never answered to, so here goes.

$120 in a full retube (the stock ones were 2-3 years old, and i wanted to try KT77's).

$140 on new speakers for the slant cab i brought to school - metal'd things right up fine and dandy! i love that cab even more though

$80 on a modded tubescreamer to boost. got myself amazing crunch tone, and a great boost for the distortion channels.

i almost now have a 4 channel amp, that can cover a LOT of ground. :)

and as for the whole 2 amps for all the sounds thing, i'd rather have 1 head and 1 cab to lug around lol

[Milkman]

design and materials are the key... a good dose of experience is also very helpful... and do not forget workmanship... a bad solder joint can take down the whole unit.

Take the whole PCB vs point to point... turret board ( all that gobblygook ) debate... sure hand wired is a very good design but don't swear off PCB because it has a bad side in the mass production industry. PCB is every bit as toneful when done right as a P to P or Turret board. All methods require good design and top notch materials with solid experience to back it up. Make a couple of bad moves in a P to P cct and you will end up with an unfavorable end result.

I hate to say it but... I've serviced most of the major brands of amps... Peavy, Randall, Traynor, Crate, Fender, Marshall, etc... the mass production low cost amps tend to have inherant issues... simple issues that can cause big problems... bad solder joints, loose connections due to bad terminals... these terminals are usually of poor quality, poor designe... usually lay out, cheap components... look at the pots??? Things are getting beter though with better quality coming in at lower prices.

Not ranting for the sake of it... I own a Randall.


Yup, sounds like the voice of experience. Still, you can use top quality components and a good design and not have to hand build every element in order to get the same tone and with reasonable expectations of reliability. I think it's the labour cost of hand work that drives the price out of reason for me.

Balance is a good thing.

[Ripper]

Yup, sounds like the voice of experience. Still, you can use top quality components and a good design and not have to hand build every element in order to get the same tone and with reasonable expectations of reliability. I think it's the labour cost of hand work that drives the price out of reason for me.

Balance is a good thing.

Cost of labour and the fact that the market will pay the price for the terms "hand wired" and boooooteeek.

You make an excellent point about design and quality being a major factor over hand wired, as for PCB boards I agree that they aren't a bad thing. The old ampegs (portaflexs etc) had sturdy pcbs back then and they have lasted as long as lots of handwired ptp stuff. A good quality circuit board isnt a bad thing necesarily. I've seen lots of really shitty hand wired stuff too.

[KHINGPYNN]

not to offend but the yankee's are great at hyping their labour as the finest... ppl will pay more when they believe something.

[Ripper]

not to offend but the yankee's are great at hyping their labour as the finest... ppl will pay more when they believe something.

you ain't just whistling dixie on that one :D

It's very true, like alot of stuff in the last 10-15 years, so much hype in magazines and internet and with the proper phrases, people can be led to beleive just about anything.

I've seen some boooteeek amps that were a bogner pa, the chassis painted and with a few little tweaks to the circuit. Stuff it in an oak or maple box, give it a catchy name and charge $2000 or more for it.

I'm not a firm believer that expensive necessarily means better or longer lasting.