G&L or Fender?

[Hotrod]

Hello people...my son started takeing guitar lessons and I've been hanging around the music store..I havent played in many years however the old fire has started to burn again. I picked him up a Epiphone Studio as a starter seems to be not to bad also picked up a Fender Deluxe amp....sort of for him ..but really for me...But I cant decide on the guitar I was thinking Fender American Standard Telecaster then I saw the G&L ASAT Classic...now Im confused... If Im not mistaken the ASAT is a bit more money. Any thoughts or suggestions.

[washburned]

Shop around.....Guitar Adoptions usually has great deals on G&Ls, if you don't mind ordering from the US; or take a look at the G&L Tribute line: US made pickups on Korean mfgr to US specs, and set up in the US....good friend of mine has a Tribute Legacy (strat style) and it's his do it all guitar....you should be able to find a Tribute ASAT new for about $500 - 600 in Canada...better prices in US.

[Hotrod]

Thanks Washburned for the reply....so are you saying go G&L instead of Fender? I mean the Fender name has been out there forever the perception is that its better..but is it?

[washburned]

my perception is that right now, G&L are putting a bit more into their guitars than Fender; as you say, the Fender brand has been around a long time....even long after Mr. Leo Fender moved on to Music Man and, eventually, G&L. Try 'em all, find some you like, and then start to dicker...that's half the fun, IMO.

[Ripper]

my perception is that right now, G&L are putting a bit more into their guitars than Fender; as you say, the Fender brand has been around a long time....even long after Mr. Leo Fender moved on to Music Man and, eventually, G&L. Try 'em all, find some you like, and then start to dicker...that's half the fun, IMO.

Excellent advice!

[rhh7]

One small point to consider, you can not get replacement necks for G&L except from the factory...could run you $400.00 to $600.00. Fender necks for every model are readily available on eBay, and you have the aftermarket makers also.

[al3d]

it might be weird...but i could never get myself to like the G&L...the headstock is just the hugliest thing on the market, don't care if it plays nice, if i feel like pucking when i look at my instrument...it's no good to me.

On the play side, they are a bit exepensive, the ones i saw, and never liked the sound to much as well. The under 1200$ series is made in Korea anyway

[Archer]

I have never liked G&L guitars and now that I have moved up to Tom Andersons I have a hard time getting on with even the highest end custom shop Fenders.

My advice? Save your money and go with an Anderson, Suhr, Grosh, Tyler or another TRULY high end S-type guitar.

Once you step up into that class of guitar y ou will never look back.

[Archer]

my perception is that right now, G&L are putting a bit more into their guitars than Fender; as you say, the Fender brand has been around a long time....even long after Mr. Leo Fender moved on to Music Man and, eventually, G&L. Try 'em all, find some you like, and then start to dicker...that's half the fun, IMO.


Leo actually left music completely. He then came back when retirement didnt agree with him....he didnt really move on into another company.

[guitarman2]

I've heard the G&L guitars aren't what they used to be. I owned a G&L Asat back in the early 90s and it was one of the best guitars I ever owned. Still kind of kick myself for selling it. I've been gassing for a G&L now for awhile. But I won't get rid of my US tele. I've got a 2004 US tele with Kinman electronics and an AV52RI. I'll be looking maybe to add a G&L sometime next year if I can find one I like. To me they are different (at least the one I had) Less twangy but nice and full warm sounding. I don't know if they hold their value as well as a Fender Tele. When I bought mine they were alot more money than a Fender. Now they are a little closer in price. I bought mine used, it was a couple years old and was made before Leo Fender died. Supposedly that made it more valuable but I don't know if that was true.

[cdub66]

I have never liked G&L guitars and now that I have moved up to Tom Andersons I have a hard time getting on with even the highest end custom shop Fenders.

My advice? Save your money and go with an Anderson, Suhr, Grosh, Tyler or another TRULY high end S-type guitar.

Once you step up into that class of guitar y ou will never look back.

Damn you Archer! :smile:
Just when I thought I was happy with my gear, you throw this out there! :eek:
Now I'm curious.

(sigh)

[guitarman2]

I have never liked G&L guitars and now that I have moved up to Tom Andersons I have a hard time getting on with even the highest end custom shop Fenders.

.

To me I'd have a hard time beleiving there'd be much of a noticeable improvement from the CS Nocaster.

[ne1roc]

if i feel like pucking when i look at my instrument...it's no good to me.



Well pucking is way better then puking! :smile:

[al3d]

Well pucking is way better then puking! :smile:

LOL..hey..don't make fun of the english impaired..:rockon2:

[ne1roc]

LOL..hey..don't make fun of the english impaired..:rockon2:

I'd call it hockey impaired! :smilie_flagge17:

[al3d]

I'd call it hockey impaired! :smilie_flagge17:

oh that's just nasty..LOL

[Hotrod]

Thanks for all the advice...my heads spinning....so many to choose from... I've looked at and tried the Fender,G&L, Hagstrom Super Sweede, and Epipone custom... they all seem fine for a variety of different styles of music..unfortunately I dont have enough experience to determine which one is right for me...I suppose they all would be at this point...I want to get something and dont mind paying the price...but I dont want to regret it later. Im kinda researched out...if you know what I mean. I guess I just have to go buy one and get it over with.....I know I will probabably end up with several guitars when the smoke clears....My wife is gonna love me...:frown:..Once again Thanks for the help.

[bagpipe]

Thanks for all the advice...my heads spinning....so many to choose from... I've looked at and tried the Fender,G&L, Hagstrom Super Sweede, and Epipone custom... they all seem fine for a variety of different styles of music..unfortunately I dont have enough experience to determine which one is right for me...I suppose they all would be at this point...I want to get something and dont mind paying the price...but I dont want to regret it later. Im kinda researched out...if you know what I mean. I guess I just have to go buy one and get it over with.....I know I will probabably end up with several guitars when the smoke clears....My wife is gonna love me...:frown:..Once again Thanks for the help.

You might want to think about splitting the guitars into single coil/humbucker categories. Even though there are many "hybrid" styles available ie Strats with a humbucker in the bridge, or dual humbuckers with split coil pickups. For the styles of music that you like to play, are they more suited to play on single coils or humbuckers? Once you decide that, you can focus on subtleties within that range. ie if you like single coils, go play some Tele styles (G&L, US Fender, Mexican Fender) and compare them to Strat styles (same as above). This might help narrow down the choices a little for you.

For me, when buying a guitar, the bottom line is "Does this guitar scream at me to be played?". If not, then its not the guitar for you, no matter what advice you get from other well meaning folks.

[smorgdonkey]

it might be weird...but i could never get myself to like the G&L...the headstock is just the hugliest thing on the market, don't care if it plays nice, if i feel like pucking when i look at my instrument...it's no good to me.
It is very similar to the Fender headstock with one added 'point'. Ever see an Ibanez headstock? Aaaaarrgghh! Or a Heritage? AAaaaaRRggHH!!

On the play side, they are a bit exepensive, the ones i saw, and never liked the sound to much as well. The under 1200$ series is made in Korea anyway
The Korean ones are great guitars...at least the older ones are. I recently played a few of the new Tribute line and they felt very sterile and more like a tool than an instrument.

EVERYONE should know by now that 'Made In Korea' is not a statement of shortcomings regarding quality. If you avoid them for political reasons then that is understandable...for quality...I'd say that they hold their own with many guitars that sell for much more.

The first guitar I ever bought off of eBay is this G&L Tribute ASAT Classic
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/smorgdonkey/G%20and%20L/ASATclassictrib.jpg
I had two more older Tribute Series guitars and recently sold one just due to the numbers game.

[Archer]

To me I'd have a hard time beleiving there'd be much of a noticeable improvement from the CS Nocaster.


Noticeable is an understatement. Quantum leap is more like it. Fenders custom shop has 4 or 5 times the # of workers (they arent all luthiers) more than you will kind in Tom Anderson's, John Suhr's or James Tylers workshops.

Skilled hands on deck is the way to make a high end guitar. If you want to drop the big bucks drop them on the desk of a small crew of skilled builders....not the desks of a company with a special section in a huge factory that they call a custom shop to sound special.

Fenders are cool but they arent true high end.

[smorgdonkey]

I've played $6000 guitars and although they always have reasons that make them cost the big $$ to purchase I have never found that they make me unable to play the less expensive instruments. Get a decent guitar and have it plek'd and you'll be laughing...if plek isn't available just find a great set-up artist and have the guitar worked over well.

Many of the $3-4000+ guitars like Suhr and Anderson are extra expensive because the person has the reputation and therefor the demand and therefor the income requirements. They aren't going to build their guitars and live on the equivalent of a $50,000.00 per year salary...but they use the same kind of wood and they use the same essential materials. They don't have a super accurate machine that cuts the bodies out...so since it is hand cut then you have to pay 3-4 times as much. All of the set-up work, fret work, pretty much everything is all done by hand so (you guessed it) you have to pay 3-4 times as much. The price may be triple or more but the quality is more like 10% more.

I have the money. The 10% has never been worth it...yet.

I say choose your style (strat, Les Paul), go custom if you must have a certain look, and get it plek'd. That's a better way to spend the money in my opinion. Then you have something that cost stock money plus the plek fee and it runs neck and neck with the prohibitively expensive high end brands.

[Archer]

I've played $6000 guitars and although they always have reasons that make them cost the big $$ to purchase I have never found that they make me unable to play the less expensive instruments. Get a decent guitar and have it plek'd and you'll be laughing...if plek isn't available just find a great set-up artist and have the guitar worked over well.

Many of the $3-4000+ guitars like Suhr and Anderson are extra expensive because the person has the reputation and therefor the demand and therefor the income requirements. They aren't going to build their guitars and live on the equivalent of a $50,000.00 per year salary...but they use the same kind of wood and they use the same essential materials. They don't have a super accurate machine that cuts the bodies out...so since it is hand cut then you have to pay 3-4 times as much. All of the set-up work, fret work, pretty much everything is all done by hand so (you guessed it) you have to pay 3-4 times as much. The price may be triple or more but the quality is more like 10% more.

I have the money. The 10% has never been worth it...yet.

I say choose your style (strat, Les Paul), go custom if you must have a certain look, and get it plek'd. That's a better way to spend the money in my opinion. Then you have something that cost stock money plus the plek fee and it runs neck and neck with the prohibitively expensive high end brands.


Suhr, anderson and grosh all have a 'super accurate machine that cuts bodies out'. The machines arent used for EVERYTHING like the machines in a factory like Fender or Ibanez. The quality of an ANderson when compared to a fender isnt best expressed in small percentages....rather it is like somebody has turned a light on in a room. I was using Ibanez and Fenders when I got my first Anderson....it was a revelation.

I can also guarandamntee you that Tom Anderson and John Suhr are making a good deal more than 50K a year. ESPECIALLY when you find out about their ghost clients are (if you dont know what a ghost builder is look it up)

[Spikezone]

I say buy the G&L! I have a G&L Legacy, and it beats any Fender Strat I have ever played hands down. I have always wanted an ASAT as well, and I, for one, have found any of the G&L Tribute line guitars I have played to be of great quality (and I don't find that the headstocks make me 'puck' at all! LOL!)
-Mikey

[Robert1950]

They don't have a super accurate machine that cuts the bodies out...so since it is hand cut then you have to pay 3-4 times as much. All of the set-up work, fret work, pretty much everything is all done by hand so (you guessed it) you have to pay 3-4 times as much. The price may be triple or more but the quality is more like 10% more.

The Law of Diminishing Returns. How much more training does an Olympic runner have to do to shave that tenth of a second of his run? How much more is a guy/gal willing to spend on an axe to get that little extra bit of mojo?

I have a Jimmie Vaughan Strat. It costs about $675 new (I got mine used, mint for $550). An American Vintage strat costs a little over twice as much. Is it over 100% better than my JV strat? I don't think so. They may have very similar soft 'V' maple necks (both made in US, the JV is assembled in Mexico). Maybe it's 40 to 50% better - maybe. As you higher up, the increments get smaller. A DeTemple strat may cost at least $2000 more than Suhr Classic. Is it that much better - likely not, but there are those out there that notice that extra 10% increase in really good tone and demand it for that kind of $$$. Me? I'm likely not one of them. Am I likely to notice that 10%? Likely, Would in make a difference in my playing? Unlikely. I'm happy with my JV Strat. Might change the pups for the hell down the road, but that's all.

Sorry about the tangent. If I had the money at the time a couple of years ago, I would have bought this used G&L Legacy. It was the most magical strat I ever played.

[smorgdonkey]

Suhr, anderson and grosh all have a 'super accurate machine that cuts bodies out'.
Well that would be another reason NOT to pay 3-4 times as much.
If the body is good, and the neck is good then all you have is electronics and geometry...there is nothing else.
The machines arent used for EVERYTHING like the machines in a factory like Fender or Ibanez. The quality of an ANderson when compared to a fender isnt best expressed in small percentages....rather it is like somebody has turned a light on in a room.
Yes, a numerical value likely isn't the 'best' way to quantify or describe it. I tend to think in those numerical terms when balancing something versus something else and comparing the costs of each. For this topic I agree that your analogy is a better representation.
I can also guarandamntee you that Tom Anderson and John Suhr are making a good deal more than 50K a year. ESPECIALLY when you find out about their ghost clients are (if you dont know what a ghost builder is look it up)
That was my point...they are making huge dollars for essentially the same wood (so you are paying for their reputation and their quality/workmanship that gained them that reputation)...they have their geometry down and they are meticulously taking care of every detail BUT that is why I say I'd rather get a solid platform like a standard USA Strat, have a quality nut put on, have it plek'd and then choose my pickups. If I made $10,000 per month...maybe I'd go for an Anderson or a Suhr but I don't have money to burn and I think that my guitar (after following my method outlined in red) would shed just as much light in the room as the others.


So...yes...on the original topic: I think you'd be happy with either. Try a few different models and see what feels nicest to you...find something that you like the look of and see if you can get them to come together. One fantastic thing about the G&Ls is that they tend to drop a bit quicker in price when they hit the used market so you can get extreme value for your $$ if you buy a used G&L.

[NB-SK]

I have never liked G&L guitars and now that I have moved up to Tom Andersons I have a hard time getting on with even the highest end custom shop Fenders.

My advice? Save your money and go with an Anderson, Suhr, Grosh, Tyler or another TRULY high end S-type guitar.

Once you step up into that class of guitar y ou will never look back.

Never tried one of them, but it's true that a lot of people are saying that the best S-type guitars are not made by Fender.

My friend tried my CIJ Fender strat and told me that in his opinion it was as good as his custom shop American (not to say that all CIJ Fenders are better).

[Hotrod]

Thanks to everyone that has replied...yesterday I went and played the ASAT by G&L and the Fender Deluxe American Tele...I like them both, they feel good ,sound good and look good the Fender has the new S1 switch which gives you alittle more range and the Fender is approx. $100 less...so having said all that I still have'nt made my mind up... with these 2 units I have concluded there isnt a right or wrong....who knows I may buy them both... and to top it off probably buy a Hagstrom Super Sweede just for the heck of it...Thanks again to everyone...very pleased I found the site. You will most certainly see me around....Cheers :smile:

[GUInessTARS]

I own a custom shop tele, a 50th anniversary strat, an S-500, and an asat classic. They all have different neck profiles, fingerboard radii, and pickups. They all sound different, good, but different. The instrument is what it is in your hands with your amp.
They all sound the same in the case.

[greco]

The instrument is what it is in your hands with your amp.
They all sound the same in the case.

Can I have your permission to use this in my sig?
(with credit to you ....of course)

Thanks

Dave

[GUInessTARS]

Feel free, it was just an observation

[GUInessTARS]

Because I have 20 of them in cases making the same sound

[greco]

Because I have 20 of them in cases making the same sound


Couldn't resist adding this also..icing on the cake !!

Thanks

Dave

[smorgdonkey]

the Fender has the new S1 switch which gives you alittle more range and the Fender is approx. $100 less...
I have a Fender Tele with a humbucker in the neck and the S-1. Incredible guitar with so many different voices. The S-1 is a fantastic option.

[happydude]

I say choose your style (strat, Les Paul), go custom if you must have a certain look, and get it plek'd. That's a better way to spend the money in my opinion. Then you have something that cost stock money plus the plek fee and it runs neck and neck with the prohibitively expensive high end brands.

What the heck does that mean?

[greco]

What the heck does that mean?

here is "What the Plek does that mean"

http://www.ultimateguitargear.com/review_plek.htm

Dave

[rwe333]

G&L here...
As much as I like Fender, I find G&L much more stable (tuning) and solid.
IMHO, G&L make guitars as good or better than many of the high-priced 'boutique' cats. YMMV...

[bolero]

I think the G&L headstock looks killer on the ASAT, tele headstocks have always looked goofy to me


G&L's are made in the same shop they made fenders in during Leo's days.....on a lot of the same equipment

every G&L I've played has been a great gtr

fenders are everywhere, and kind of boring IMO

I'd say buy a used G&L

[unzari]

I can also guarandamntee you that Tom Anderson and John Suhr are making a good deal more than 50K a year. ESPECIALLY when you find out about their ghost clients are (if you dont know what a ghost builder is look it up)

Any names? I'd love to know!

[unzari]

I'd rather get a solid platform like a standard USA Strat, have a quality nut put on, have it plek'd and then choose my pickups.

Where can u get guitars pleked in Ontario? I've never heard of this technology before but it looks really intriguing.

[Robert1950]

Where can u get guitars pleked in Ontario? I've never heard of this technology before but it looks really intriguing.

You can't. There isn't a Plek machine in Canada. Here is list of Pleck machines in the US.

http://www.plek.com/indexdf0b.html?id=162

[smorgdonkey]

I hear they are pricey too...I thought that G&L USA was PLEKing everything now...just something I heard. Anyone verify?

[Beerhunter]

Hi there, just thought I should add a bit to the info found in this thread. I was the one that recommended G&L to Hotrod when he began to look at Tele's. IMO, G&L is the better guitar choice but this of course is completely subjective.

To the best of my knowledge, all USA made G&L guitars are plek'd (the plek machine can be seen in the first video at 4:40).

Leo latest inovations were with G&L and not Fender. George Fullerton and Leo Fender started G&L after a dispute with Fender. I can't remember what it was but I think it was to do the the Fender Amp line-up.

The Tribute line up is CNC'd in Korea but uses American components.

I had the pleasure of visiting the G&L factory and also visited Leo vault before it was moved from G&L. Here are a couple videos that I made of my visit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XViK4laMGwk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nBw--ohySw

[Archer]

Leo latest inovations were with G&L and not Fender. George Fullerton and Leo Fender started G&L after a dispute with Fender. I can't remember what it was but I think it was to do the the Fender Amp line-up.




No. Leo sold Fender in the late 60's. He was going to retire and live on a boat.....the didnt turn out the way he had hoped. From there we worked as a consultant at Music Man and started G&L after leaving his position at Music Man.

Leo didnt leave fender...he sold it.

[Beerhunter]

No. Leo sold Fender in the late 60's. He was going to retire and live on a boat.....the didnt turn out the way he had hoped. From there we worked as a consultant at Music Man and started G&L after leaving his position at Music Man.

Leo didnt leave fender...he sold it.

OK, looked it up and he left Fender due to an apparent terminal illness. He then received a clean bill of health about a year later and began working as a design consultant for Music Man and then later founded G&L with Fullerton.

I know that he did cut ties with Fender later on though as he was sued for displaying "Guitars by Leo Fender" on the headstock of the G&L guitars. This was then changed to "Guitars by Leo" as a result of the lawsuit. Actually, it may not have been a lawsuit but rather a C&D.

I had the pleasure of meeting Phylis Fender at the same time as I did the G&L tour. I'll try and dig up my notes of the interview.

[Robert1950]

I wouldn't mind getting one of these one day to complement my Fender Jimmie Vaughan Strat:

http://www.glguitars.com/instruments/pics/small/LEGACY-SPECIAL-butterblonde.jpg

but in a different colour and with rosewood fretboard. My Fender already has a maple soft V neck.

[keefsdad]

I had an American made Tribute a few years ago, I bought it because it appeared to be impeccably contructed, and it probably was. Unfortunately I could never could get used to the feel or the very thin sound, and ended up trading it for an American Strat. They do feel and sound different than a Fender.
Obviously that is just my experience, and your mileage may vary.:food-smiley-004:

[smorgdonkey]

I had an American made Tribute a few years ago, I bought it because it appeared to be impeccably contructed, and it probably was. Unfortunately I could never could get used to the feel or the very thin sound, and ended up trading it for an American Strat. They do feel and sound different than a Fender.
Obviously that is just my experience, and your mileage may vary.:food-smiley-004:

There is no American made Tribute. The Tributes are the Korean line. As for thin sound...I have a Tribute ASAT, a Tribute Invader and just sold a Tribute Legacy Premium. There are no 'thin' sounding ones. A rare dud? Possibly. Not in the 10 or so that I've tried.

They do tend to feel and sound a bit different than Fenders.

[Spikezone]

I had the pleasure of visiting the G&L factory and also visited Leo vault before it was moved from G&L. Here are a couple videos that I made of my visit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XViK4laMGwk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nBw--ohySw

OK, that pees me off! LOL! I took my family to Disneyland in 1998 (the year after I got my G&L Legacy), and while I was there, I thought I'd love to go see where my precious 'baby' was born. I phoned G&L and asked them if I could come and see the factory in Fullerton, and they nicely told me that they didn't have the liability coverage for such a thing, so I couldn't get in. How did you? Have they changed their policy since then, or are you special? If so, kudos to you, but I was always upset I couldn't see the factory in operation!
-Mikey

[FrogRick12]

G&L's are real Fenders.

Fender stopped being Fender in 1965.

Fender is now a marketing company that has watered down its brand equity with a confusing plethora of assembly-line models.

Save your money - get a G&L.

Flame away.....:wave:

[Spikezone]

G&L's are real Fenders.

Fender stopped being Fender in 1965.

Fender is now a marketing company that has watered down its brand equity with a confusing plethora of assembly-line models.

Save your money - get a G&L.

Flame away.....:wave:
YEP!
-Mikey

[kw_guitarguy]

Good list of ghostbuilders and the definition :)

http://www.edroman.com/rants/ghost.htm

~Andrew

[Robert1950]

Good list of ghostbuilders and the definition :)

http://www.edroman.com/rants/ghost.htm

~Andrew

The thing is, Ed Roman has as much credibility in the guitar world as George W. Bush as a world peacemaker. Heritage and Paul Reed Smith are just two of the guitar makers that have yanked a dealership from him for,... numerous reasons.

[Beerhunter]

OK, that pees me off! LOL! I took my family to Disneyland in 1998 (the year after I got my G&L Legacy), and while I was there, I thought I'd love to go see where my precious 'baby' was born. I phoned G&L and asked them if I could come and see the factory in Fullerton, and they nicely told me that they didn't have the liability coverage for such a thing, so I couldn't get in. How did you? Have they changed their policy since then, or are you special? If so, kudos to you, but I was always upset I couldn't see the factory in operation!
-Mikey

Don't be too upset with them :) I had a press pass for the NAMM show and we were interviewing Phylis Fender and David Mclaren (BBE) and as part of the interview etc we did a plant tour and a tour of Leo's vault. Actually, seeing Leo's vault was a very incredible experience. His presence could be felt in the room (well, you know what I mean anyways).

[keefsdad]

There is no American made Tribute. The Tributes are the Korean line. As for thin sound...I have a Tribute ASAT, a Tribute Invader and just sold a Tribute Legacy Premium. There are no 'thin' sounding ones. A rare dud? Possibly. Not in the 10 or so that I've tried.

They do tend to feel and sound a bit different than Fenders.
Yeah, sorry, I meant Legacy, as opposed toTribute. My bad:rockon:

[keefsdad]

G&L's are real Fenders.

Fender stopped being Fender in 1965.

Fender is now a marketing company that has watered down its brand equity with a confusing plethora of assembly-line models.

Save your money - get a G&L.

Flame away.....:wave:

I wouldn't flame you at all. I'd just say they are different sounding and feeling instruments and people should try them and make up their own minds:rockon:

[Archer]

The best Fender style guitars out there arent made by Fender or G&L.

Save your $$$ and go with Tom Anderson, SUhr, Grosh, James Tyler....etc. If you want real high end you need to go boutique...if you want affordable and easily replaced go G&L or Fender.

[washburned]

Leo actually left music completely. He then came back when retirement didnt agree with him....he didnt really move on into another company.

As I recall the story, Leo left fender after selling to CBS because he didn't like the direction the company was going. After a mandatory wait period written into his contract with CBS, he became involved with MM in the early 1980s, until he retired. He was persuaded to come out of retirement by his old friend George Fullerton to form G&L, where he worked until the day he died. Open to correction.

[smorgdonkey]

he became involved with MM in the early 1980s, until he retired. He was persuaded to come out of retirement by his old friend George Fullerton to form G&L, where he worked until the day he died. Open to correction.
He left MM due to a disagreement with shareholders/partners...started G&L so that he wouldn't have to answer to anyone else.

[guitarman2]

Fenders are cool but they arent true high end.


True high end is a $100 guitar in the hands of a skilled musician that can make it sound amazing.
Probably the most expensive guitar I've played was a $6,000 hand made Dean. I didn't like it but its probably just because I'm to used to playing crappy Fenders that cost between $1,000 and $3,000.

[Archer]

True high end is a $100 guitar in the hands of a skilled musician that can make it sound amazing.
Probably the most expensive guitar I've played was a $6,000 hand made Dean. I didn't like it but its probably just because I'm to used to playing crappy Fenders that cost between $1,000 and $3,000.

The player in your case is the high end piece..and while the player is the most important part skill can't overcome an under engineered or inferior guitar.

[Stevo]

Fender all the way. Maybe it is just the half dozen G&L's I tried, but I haven't found one that played as well or sounded as good as a comparable model of Fender. YMMV.....

[Tarbender]

I'm not a big fan of "Strat" guitars, but appreciate that they have a sound that's hard to always replicate, so I thought I would add one to my arsenal. I lost count of how many Fenders I tried, and then tried a couple of G & L's. I have to admint the G & L's just seemed a lot more solid feeling in my hands. And over all the finish and fit seemed superior to me. At the end of the day I liked the sound and the way it played so I got the G & L. I still don't use it alot, but it really was better than all the Fender "strats" that I tried. That being said, I still believe each individual guitar should stand on it's own and I'm sure that G & L make some dogs too, but I still prefer them to the Fenders I've tried.

[FrogRick12]

The best Fender style guitars out there arent made by Fender or G&L.

Save your $$$ and go with Tom Anderson, SUhr, Grosh, James Tyler....etc. If you want real high end you need to go boutique...if you want affordable and easily replaced go G&L or Fender.

Affordable and easily replaced?

My 2005 G&L ASAT Deluxe was on the wall for $2,450.00. A lot of Andersons and Groshes cost less than that.

I've peeked inside the back of the G&L shop on Fender Avenue in Fullerton, California (the original home of Fender) when the guys were on their lunch break. Judging from the age of the woodworking machinery ( possibly from the original Fender shop!) and the notations on the machinery where Leo left measurements and his "CLF" initials in white paint, I'd say G&L's couldn't BE any more genuinely "Fender" if they tried.

[smorgdonkey]

Judging from the age of the woodworking machinery ( possibly from the original Fender shop!) and the notations on the machinery where Leo left measurements and his "CLF" initials in white paint, I'd say G&L's couldn't BE any more genuinely "Fender" if they tried.
Much of the machinery was indeed taken over to Leo's new operation...including the paint booth. I have often been guilty of saying G&L is 'more Fender than Fender'. That's where the man went with all of his expertise when he moved on from his first two companies.

If you have ever seen the trans red ASAT that was out a couple of years ago as a limited run then you'd definitely remember that one. It looked incredible.

[al3d]

Hum...Leo Fender as'nt realy been involved in any real descision in the last 20 years...his name his used..but as for the ideas and the man!...i SERIOUSLY doubt it. the man that created the Strat surely did'tn design the most hugly head stock out there. they look like strat at first glance, but man..design wise!....wow..total failiure in my view

[Archer]

Affordable and easily replaced?

My 2005 G&L ASAT Deluxe was on the wall for $2,450.00. A lot of Andersons and Groshes cost less than that.

I've peeked inside the back of the G&L shop on Fender Avenue in Fullerton, California (the original home of Fender) when the guys were on their lunch break. Judging from the age of the woodworking machinery ( possibly from the original Fender shop!) and the notations on the machinery where Leo left measurements and his "CLF" initials in white paint, I'd say G&L's couldn't BE any more genuinely "Fender" if they tried.


You say 'genuinely Fender' as if that really mattered. 50 year old machines do not mean the guitars made on them are great.

2450 is (quite a lot) less than the new price on any of the base line models out of Anderson or Grosh. Not that price is the deciding factor in guitar quality.....

[FrogRick12]

You say 'genuinely Fender' as if that really mattered. 50 year old machines do not mean the guitars made on them are great.

2450 is (quite a lot) less than the new price on any of the base line models out of Anderson or Grosh. Not that price is the deciding factor in guitar quality.....

The "genuinely Fender" remark was in response to the theme of the OP.
No - it doesn't really matter - that's the whole point. It was in response to your original assertion: "The best Fender style guitars out there arent made by Fender or G&L."

In G&L's case, that's simply not true.

Those 50 year old machines have made some great guitars.

All I could find on Groshes and Andersons were MSRP prices - not selling prices. $2,450.00 was the selling price of my guitar - list on it was over $3,000.00 - right in the ballpark of many Groshes and Andersons.

If you think a $2,450.00 guitar is "affordable and easily replaced", you must have a lot of money.

[smorgdonkey]

Hum...Leo Fender as'nt realy been involved in any real descision in the last 20 years...his name his used..but as for the ideas and the man!...i SERIOUSLY doubt it. the man that created the Strat surely did'tn design the most hugly head stock out there. they look like strat at first glance, but man..design wise!....wow..total failiure in my view

Well...that would be because he passed away in 1991.

The headstock surely was created by Leo and it isn't the ugliest out there by a LONG shot-that may be your view but you can't have looked around at other headstocks much if you think that is the ugliest....and what would be the design elements aside from that headstock that are a 'total failure'?

[al3d]

Well...that would be because he passed away in 1991.

The headstock surely was created by Leo and it isn't the ugliest out there by a LONG shot-that may be your view but you can't have looked around at other headstocks much if you think that is the ugliest....and what would be the design elements aside from that headstock that are a 'total failure'?

bridge, pup configuration...as for me not looking around..well.been looking around for 30 years..and it IS by a long shot the hugliest thing Ive seen..but that's my tast.

[Archer]

The "genuinely Fender" remark was in response to the theme of the OP.
No - it doesn't really matter - that's the whole point. It was in response to your original assertion: "The best Fender style guitars out there arent made by Fender or G&L."

In G&L's case, that's simply not true.

Those 50 year old machines have made some great guitars.

All I could find on Groshes and Andersons were MSRP prices - not selling prices. $2,450.00 was the selling price of my guitar - list on it was over $3,000.00 - right in the ballpark of many Groshes and Andersons.

If you think a $2,450.00 guitar is "affordable and easily replaced", you must have a lot of money.


2450 isnt a lot of money on the grand scheme of t hings

[FrogRick12]

2450 isnt a lot of money on the grand scheme of t hings

Well, maybe not out there in "Alerta"......

[Spikezone]

Hum...Leo Fender as'nt realy been involved in any real descision in the last 20 years...his name his used..but as for the ideas and the man!...i SERIOUSLY doubt it. the man that created the Strat surely did'tn design the most hugly head stock out there. they look like strat at first glance, but man..design wise!....wow..total failiure in my view

Well, al3d, as smorgdonkey stated, Leo is indeed deceased, which a 'Start Lover' (check your spelling, stratlover-LOL!) such as yourself should know. As far as the headstock, I love the look of the Fender headstocks, especially the oversize '69 (or thereabouts) ones, but I have no problemo with the G&L's such as the one on my Legacy. If you don't like them, that is only your opinion, isn't it? I have never found any Strats that I liked as much as any of the G&L's I tried, except my buddy's '60, which I would hopelessly drool on if I had no self-control. Not really trying to pick your a$$, just pointing out that we all have our opinions. And as far as Leo's involvement with G&L design, as far as I know, he started up the company because he felt that he could further improve the Strat beyond its virtually unchanged state since CBS took over his old company.
-Mikey

[Hotrod]

Someone commented earlier..."One fantastic thing about the G&Ls is that they tend to drop a bit quicker in price when they hit the used market so you can get extreme value for your $$ if you buy a used G&L."
I am looking at a used 2001 ASAT Classic excelent condition with certificate....the guys asking $900....too much???? whats a fair offer?...I posted a new topic asking this but only got qne opinion.

[Spikezone]

Well, I know my Legacy Standard set me back about $1500 back in 1997, so I guess you could use that as a bit of a rule of thumb...
-Mikey

[Hotrod]

A new ASAT Classic on MusiciansFriend is $1237

[smorgdonkey]

bridge, pup configuration...as for me not looking around..well.been looking around for 30 years..and it IS by a long shot the hugliest thing Ive seen..but that's my tast.

...but the pickup configuration is identical to a Fender strat...

Ever see a Danelectro headstock? How about Ibanez' headstock? Look at Heritage...there are many, many uglier headstocks than that...even Harmony had an ugly headstock...Parker? Anyone can have an opinion but it seems to me that you have fallen into the Fender vs. G&L battle and are determined to hate them regardless...come on...pup configuration? Please.

[al3d]

...but the pickup configuration is identical to a Fender strat...

Ever see a Danelectro headstock? How about Ibanez' headstock? Look at Heritage...there are many, many uglier headstocks than that...even Harmony had an ugly headstock...Parker? Anyone can have an opinion but it seems to me that you have fallen into the Fender vs. G&L battle and are determined to hate them regardless...come on...pup configuration? Please.

Dude...it's my opinion on those..why are you turning this into a personnal vendetta!...Not everyone as to think as you do mate. that's why not all axes are made the same way. Keep that in mind

[FrogRick12]

Someone commented earlier..."One fantastic thing about the G&Ls is that they tend to drop a bit quicker in price when they hit the used market so you can get extreme value for your $$ if you buy a used G&L."
I am looking at a used 2001 ASAT Classic excelent condition with certificate....the guys asking $900....too much???? whats a fair offer?...I posted a new topic asking this but only got qne opinion.

Anytime I see a U.S.-made, handmade guitar for under a grand, I think that's a good deal - no matter what the headstock looks like!

[Spikezone]

Dude...it's my opinion on those..why are you turning this into a personnal vendetta!...Not everyone as to think as you do mate. that's why not all axes are made the same way. Keep that in mind
Probably because you make it sound like it's YOUR personal vendetta to convince the whole world that it's the ugliest headstock on the planet when it's only your personal opinion...if you had just said,"They might be good guitars, but I don't like the shape of the headstock"...
-Mikey

[Archer]

I think people waste a lot of time talking about headstocks. I want one that is at a good angle and allows for straight string pull. Aside from that...whatever.

G&L headstocks look fine to me.

[smorgdonkey]

Dude...it's my opinion on those..why are you turning this into a personnal vendetta!...Not everyone as to think as you do mate. that's why not all axes are made the same way. Keep that in mind

Holy upset easily? If you are such a stickler for debate maybe you'd be a stickler for keeping your opinion to yourself when it is off in left field but whatever...if you think a couple of posts discussing something is a personal vendetta then so be it. Also 'opinion' certainly can vary but when something is identical then it is identical like the s/s/s pup config on an s500 or a Legacy Premium.

I think spikezone got you perfectly when he said:
Probably because you make it sound like it's YOUR personal vendetta to convince the whole world that it's the ugliest headstock on the planet when it's only your personal opinion...if you had just said,"They might be good guitars, but I don't like the shape of the headstock"...
-Mikey

[guitarman2]

Yeah I agree. Those G&L head stocks are ugly. But I really like ugly. And its my personal right to like ugly. I've always liked ugly so if anyone's got a problem with it.....

[al3d]

Holy upset easily? If you are such a stickler for debate maybe you'd be a stickler for keeping your opinion to yourself when it is off in left field but whatever...if you think a couple of posts discussing something is a personal vendetta then so be it. Also 'opinion' certainly can vary but when something is identical then it is identical like the s/s/s pup config on an s500 or a Legacy Premium.

I think spikezone got you perfectly when he said:

ok..never mind

[FrogRick12]

Yeah I agree. Those G&L head stocks are ugly. But I really like ugly. And its my personal right to like ugly. I've always liked ugly so if anyone's got a problem with it.....

You know what's really ugly?

George & Leo had to pay Fender a royalty on every G&L to use the body shapes that George & Leo themselves designed in the fifties!

[guitarman2]

You know what's really ugly?

George & Leo had to pay Fender a royalty on every G&L to use the body shapes that George & Leo themselves designed in the fifties!


Well they did sell it didn't they? Do all other custom makers of Fender style guitars have to pay royalties? Such as Crooks that makes all of Brad Paisleys Tele style guitars

[al3d]

The biggest mistake Leo made in my opinio was to sell Fender and then later tried to reclain it's former glory. Like guitarman sais, he did sell his company and any rights he had to his design, so now, he's like any other liscencie, he needs to pay for the design rights, wich is a LARGE source of income to fender.

[Archer]

You know what's really ugly?

George & Leo had to pay Fender a royalty on every G&L to use the body shapes that George & Leo themselves designed in the fifties!


I am not sure where you people get your info but it is incorrect.

Fender hasnt trademarked the strat or tele bodyshape....licensing is not required on the body shape. Licensing IS required over a registered headstock shape.

There is current litigation over the Strat and Tele body shapes. Fender has left them open for 50+ years and is now seeking a trademark on the designs....dozens of companies are lined up against fender claiming that the Strat and Tele shapes are now public. The Gibson's failed suit against PRS will be a huge precedent for Fender to overcome in court.

Huge companies like Yamaha and Samick are uniting against Fender...as well as most of the bigger boutique makers and even (in a startling bout of irony) Gibson are fighting Fender on their attempt to correct one of Leo's blunders from back in the day.

[Maxer]

Good post, Archer. I always thought the battle was over headstocks and that the bodies themselves could be copied without fear of litigation from the bug guys. It explains why all of the clone companies and boutique companies churning out tributes to Fender have different headstocks... Tyler comes to mind but pretty much everyone who doesn't want Fender legal breathing down their necks has some modification of those original headstock designs.

For what it's worth, I hope that Fender loses its case. I think you can make a good argument nowadays that the classic Tele and Strat shapes are in the public realm; besides, scads of guitars, great ones and clunkers alike, have been made utilizing these profiles without sporting a decal that says "Fender" on them.

[Robert1950]

There are some players and people out there that have this obsession with headstocks. It's not important to me. I couldn't care less about the difference between a Fender and a G&L headstock or the difference between the Gibson or Epiphone Elitist headstock. As long as it isn't ridiculous like the Dean spread eagle headstock.

[Maxer]

LOL

Agreed! Especially on that Dean 'stock. Perfectly hideous. Tylers look pretty bad to me, too. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[zontar]

There are some players and people out there that have this obsession with headstocks. It's not important to me. I couldn't care less about the difference between a Fender and a G&L headstock or the difference between the Gibson or Epiphone Elitist headstock. As long as it isn't ridiculous like the Dean spread eagle headstock.

That makes those guitars quite neck heavy--at least it did with the ones in the late 70's/early 80's.

[FrogRick12]

I am not sure where you people get your info but it is incorrect.

Fender hasnt trademarked the strat or tele bodyshape....licensing is not required on the body shape. Licensing IS required over a registered headstock shape.

There is current litigation over the Strat and Tele body shapes. Fender has left them open for 50+ years and is now seeking a trademark on the designs....dozens of companies are lined up against fender claiming that the Strat and Tele shapes are now public. The Gibson's failed suit against PRS will be a huge precedent for Fender to overcome in court.

Huge companies like Yamaha and Samick are uniting against Fender...as well as most of the bigger boutique makers and even (in a startling bout of irony) Gibson are fighting Fender on their attempt to correct one of Leo's blunders from back in the day.

I got my information from one of the G&L executives at the NAMM Show in California this year - OK?

[Archer]

I got my information from one of the G&L executives at the NAMM Show in California this year - OK?

oooooo.

color me impressed.....

I get my information from Tom Anderson - OK?

[al3d]

OH..a pissing contest.

Just my 2 cents. but the body have been, from what i am TOLD, also under liscence. Problem is the head, for both Strat and Tele is the most recognise basicaly, so slight variation, and it looks off. now, body wise!...slight change in the contour..and voila..open to discussion to say if it's a fender or not shape.

but to sell replacement and reproduction bodies...they do pay liscense. A new shop in town who will be doing both neck and body, will be doing so.

an exemple.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Allparts-Licensed-by-Fender-Strat-Body-Sea-Foam-Green_W0QQitemZ350090151625QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20 080819?IMSfp=TL0808191275r34218

[traynor_garnet]

This place gets more like HC everyday. I find myself reading and posting less and less . . .

TG

[smorgdonkey]

If there were licensing fees attached to the body shapes then Fender would have had EVERY strat copy maker ever in court over the years...like Kramer when Kramer outsold Gibson AND Fender two years in a row in the latter part of the 1980s.

[Hotrod]

Early on the replies to my question were helpful....but now.....NOT....thanks to everyone that contributed some usefull tid bits....:smile::smile:

[Archer]

If there were licensing fees attached to the body shapes then Fender would have had EVERY strat copy maker ever in court over the years...like Kramer when Kramer outsold Gibson AND Fender two years in a row in the latter part of the 1980s.

Fender has just started up the 'body shape' war in the last few years. Gibson's failed run at PRS seemed to prompt Fender's legal team to be more careful in a pursuit of the same goal. Problem is that Fender has waited for 50+ years to try and seek a trademark on shapes. They are trying to roll back the clock...so far it isnt working for them. Their lawyers tried to have strat and tele shape guitar manufacturing blocked in the US. That was tosses straight away. The battle continues....

John Suhr and Tom Anderson have addressed the legal issues with Fender on their forums. They wont get into specifics because the suits are currently going but they have both talked about their viewpoints on the issue of Fender being a bunch of twats.

James Tyler has also spoken on the issue.

[nitehawk55]

The best Fender style guitars out there arent made by Fender or G&L.

Save your $$$ and go with Tom Anderson, SUhr, Grosh, James Tyler....etc. If you want real high end you need to go boutique...if you want affordable and easily replaced go G&L or Fender.

This fellow is just beginning to play , why would he need to go with a boutique instrument ? Not everyone has $3-4K+ to spend on a guitar nor do they need to for something that is an excellent playing/sounding guitar .

I've owned a few G&L's and still own a Comanche , fine instruments as are most of the Fenders . I do have a Grosh and EC Custom shop too and all excellent guitars ( purchased used BTW ) but getting out there but trying different guitars is the best way to find what you like . Advise from others is fine but you are the only one that really knows what feels/plays and sounds right to you so have some fun with it .

A note of caution ( from my own experience over many years ) DO NOT buy a guitar based on hype OR the name on the headstock !! , you will often be dissapointed or pay too much for a guitar you will find isn't all that .
Also , lots of excellent buys in used guitars out there , you do not need to buy new and take a large $$ hit if you do decide to trade or sell . You will find some makes take a huge hit when you buy new and sell as used . G&L is one of these as is Anderson , PRS , Grosh and others depending on the guitar and it's desireability to potential buyers . A good place to study new and used pricing is ebay as it pretty much shows what the real market is willing to pay .

Keep us posted and let us know how you make out.....again , have some fun .

[Archer]

True but Fender and G&L both sell based on the names on the headstock and invoking a man that, while immensely important to the instrument, has been dead for over a decade.

Companies like Suhr, Tyler, and Anderson sell based on word of mouth and stunning instruments. Neither Tyler or Anderson advertise their instruments but still have 5 month to 1 year wait times for delivery.

The companies living off hype arent the boutique builders. It is the factory builders like Fender, G&L, Gibson, Ibanez etc. that are living on name recognition and the knowledge that most people are going to go with what they have heard of instead of searching out better, and more obscure, builders.

Like Gibson guitars? Try Hamer, McNaught, McInturf or Heatley
Like Fender or G&L? try the makers named in this thread.
Like PRS? Try Driskill, Heatley, McNaught or Hmer

[smorgdonkey]

You make good points Archer but still...those guitars are prohibitively expensive particularly to a new(ish) player. A used but still close to new condition USA Fender Strat can often be had for $600...yet a Suhr will fetch over twice that amount used (sometimes doesn't matter what condition).

Also don't forget that as nice as Hamer guitars are (will they remain that nice now that Fender bought them?) they are still a different animal than Gibson as are the rest of the names that you mention...they are all different than the design that they are based upon.

It might also be good to note that the companies which you are directing attention away from are the ones that had to at one time get noticed by word of mouth and such too. Hasn't it been mentioned that the incremental difference in quality (or the huge leap if one feels that way) may or may not be worth the huge jump in price? If money is no object then so be it but I don't know many people who are in that situation.

[nitehawk55]

Well said Smorg .

BTW will you change your avatar ? , that batboy pic freaks me out :eek:

[smorgdonkey]

Well said Smorg .

BTW will you change your avatar ? , that batboy pic freaks me out :eek:

Sorry about that man...Batboy has become somewhat of my calling card since I started doing anything on the internet back in 2002 ish.

Maybe you need a kinder gentler Batboy?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/smorgdonkey/other/batboycheeseburger.jpg

[nitehawk55]

Sorry about that man...Batboy has become somewhat of my calling card since I started doing anything on the internet back in 2002 ish.

Maybe you need a kinder gentler Batboy?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/smorgdonkey/other/batboycheeseburger.jpg

Hahaha , good one . I'm OK with it but I remember when that pic was actually on the World Weekly News some years ago at the grocery checkouts , thought it was freaky then too :eek:

[smorgdonkey]

Hahaha , good one . I'm OK with it but I remember when that pic was actually on the World Weekly News some years ago at the grocery checkouts , thought it was freaky then too :eek:
Yeah...that Batboy story actually MADE that paper...when they first published it the paper sold multiples of what it normally did and the circulation of the paper tripled or something like that. If you do a web search you can find a lot of the old photos of Batboy...he used to show up once in a while endorsing a candidate or rescuing someone etc.

[Archer]

You make good points Archer but still...those guitars are prohibitively expensive particularly to a new(ish) player. A used but still close to new condition USA Fender Strat can often be had for $600...yet a Suhr will fetch over twice that amount used (sometimes doesn't matter what condition).

Also don't forget that as nice as Hamer guitars are (will they remain that nice now that Fender bought them?) they are still a different animal than Gibson as are the rest of the names that you mention...they are all different than the design that they are based upon.

It might also be good to note that the companies which you are directing attention away from are the ones that had to at one time get noticed by word of mouth and such too. Hasn't it been mentioned that the incremental difference in quality (or the huge leap if one feels that way) may or may not be worth the huge jump in price? If money is no object then so be it but I don't know many people who are in that situation.

Dont get me wrong here. Fender, Gibson and G&L all put out good stuff. I own 4 Gibsons myself and love them. I am also one of the cheapest bastards you can imagine...I nickel and dime every piece in my collection. G&L and Fender dont have the quality I expect for the $$ whih is the only reason I dont have any from either maker anymore...I have owned many strats and Teles in the past. They are good instruments and if I can find USED ones at prices that I think fit I would buy again. As for new...not in a million years. Until Fender's 'lets sue the better builders out of business' nonsense ends they are scum in my books.

Hamer are not a very different bird from Gibson. Jol and Paul started out their company refining Gibson designs and grew it from there. Even when they branched into superstrats in the 80's and 90's their focus remained on set neck instruments...granted they use a modified dovetail rather than a tenon joint the other appointments of Hamer's designs are VERY Gibsonesque.

[smorgdonkey]

Well, I'm with you on not spending money unless the quality expectations for the money match up and typically I would buy used as well as I have with all of the 3 USA Fender Strats that I own (or have owned)...however, I bought my USA Fender Tele new and it came to about $1050. Worth every penny. I typically get USA Strats for $600ish and there's a fair amount of value in them at that price.

I played 6 of the new San Dimas Charvels that sell for $999 and come with a gig bag. 2 were strat style with pickguard, 2 were strat style without, and 2 were Tele style. All had 2 humbuckers and Floyd Rose. I thought that they were typical of the quality of guitars that retail for about $700 in fact I thought that my G&L Tribute Invader with 2 humbuckers was better than all of them. Of course it has a few distinctly different appointments too with the mahogany body, rosewood fingerboard, coil tap, and fixed bridge. I bought it for $450 or something with a hard shell case. I think $450 is about as high as I'd go on the new Charvels too but I still wouldn't be impressed. I evaluate new guitars with a heavy hand...although I bought that Tele 'sight unseen' from an eBay store. Luck? Maybe.