Strat intonation problems

[Edutainment]

I was trying to adjust the intonation on my Squier Strat and the 6th string was almost right against the back of the bridge before it was even close to being intonated properly and I could hardly turn the screw anymore. Why can't I intonate this string? Do I need to change the strings or something?

[fraser]

could be the string is damaged at the saddle and wont intonate.
could be the action is too high, so when you fret it to intonate, your pulling it sharp.
i set action height with old strings, then rough in the basic saddle pattern for close to proper intonation. then i put on new strings and intonate it.
is your saddle flush to the body, or is it floating?
if its floating it makes it a bit harder.
also make sure the frets are clean, not dinged up or anything around the twelfth fret.
lastly, ive seen this before, and own a guitar that wont intonate correctly exactly same problem you have. all attempts to correct it have failed.
ive got it as close as possible, and dont worry about it- its about 10 to 15 cents off- i cant hear the difference lol.

[Mooh]

Use a new string, tighten the vibrato springs a bit at least, remove the saddle spring and cut it in half, if the saddle is solid you can also file a bit from the end of it (you may have to shorten the screw too). If all else fails send the Strat to me and I will dispose of it.

Peace, Mooh.

[smorgdonkey]

Be careful as the string may already be past the point where it was properly intonated. If your A string is working for you then the E string should only be a bit 'back' of the A string saddle...about the width of the E string toward the bridge.

Many people pass the point where the string should be 'in' because the tuner jumps around a lot as they check the 12th fret tuning. So, if your action isn't too high (as the other poster suggested) then you may want to put that saddle back up to where your A string is and start over with the realization that it may not perfectly intonate according to your tuner. If it jumps around a lot at the 12th fret try the 10th fret for your D note and the 13th fret for your F note. I have also found that using the 12th fret harmonic will give you a good reference with the consistent singing note from the string without the over/undertones of a picked fretted note.

Another important factor is if you have your pickups close to the strings then the magnetic pull might be pulling the strings out of tune when you fret it at the 12th<------most common problem with intonation.

This is not a knock against your guitar or any other inexpensive instrument but generally speaking, intonation frustration is common with many inexpensive instruments. Patience can be a huge plus!!

[Paul]

Smaller diameter strings need the saddle pulled back farther to intonate as good as possible. Sometimes the string is too thin to intonate, based on all of the fixed points on a particular guitar.

Pick-ups too high can interfered with the free vibration of the string, making it more difficult to intonate.

[Metal#J#]

Smaller diameter strings need the saddle pulled back farther to intonate as good as possible. Sometimes the string is too thin to intonate, based on all of the fixed points on a particular guitar.
+1. This is often the problem.

For Example, if I want to keep one of my guitars in a drop tuning (DADGBE), the low D saddle wants to go further back than possible. Solution.....put a slightly heavier string on and it will intonate with no problems and this will also make up for the lost tension from down tuning.


Good luck:smilie_flagge17:

J

[Edutainment]

Smaller diameter strings need the saddle pulled back farther to intonate as good as possible. Sometimes the string is too thin to intonate, based on all of the fixed points on a particular guitar.

Pick-ups too high can interfered with the free vibration of the string, making it more difficult to intonate.

I'm using 11's so I don't think the diameter's the problem.

[smorgdonkey]

Thinner strings do not require the saddle to be farther back. Note that each string when your guitar is intonated typically moves aheadas the diameter drops (ie: A is ahead of E, D is ahead of A - then the 'restart' on the G and the same pattern continues with B ahead of G and E ahead of B). Also, if you change from a typical set of 9s to 10s every saddle goes farther back.

[Paul]

Thinner strings do not require the saddle to be farther back. Note that each string when your guitar is intonated typically moves aheadas the diameter drops (ie: A is ahead of E, D is ahead of A - then the 'restart' on the G and the same pattern continues with B ahead of G and E ahead of B). Also, if you change from a typical set of 9s to 10s every saddle goes farther back.

Not true when intonating for a specific note. The actual string length of a correctly intonated 0.042" low E is longer than the actual string length of a correctly intonated 0.056" low E, for any specific scale length.

I have never found that moving up in string gage for a set moves the saddles back. I find that the opposite is true. Are you sure you aren't moving every saddle back to account for the bridge being pulled farther forward on a floating trem instrument?

[smorgdonkey]

I have never found that moving up in string gage for a set moves the saddles back. I find that the opposite is true. Are you sure you aren't moving every saddle back to account for the bridge being pulled farther forward on a floating trem instrument?
No...fixed bridge. I don't set up my floating trems...I should really have the tool that holds the saddle so I can do them myself but I don't. Maybe I'll order one.

To my recollection (I started moving away from 9s to 10s a year and a half ago) every guitar that I switched to heavier strings had to have all of the saddles moved back. I have found people that say the same thing as you do regarding the saddle being moved 'up' or to 'shorten the string' when going thicker but I have never found that to be the case.

I found a somewhat technical explanation of why the saddles are moved away from the nut with heavier strings...my tuner says that is the case as well. Here is the explanation that I found:

Compensation of the saddle, that is, moving it away from the nut, is meant to account for - or compensate for - the fact that a string has to be stretched when it's pressed down into the fretboard. On their own, a lighter string generally needs less compensation. Makes sense picturing the line that the saddles almost make: the saddle for the high E is not too far back from the theoretical scale length of, say 24-3/4" or 25-1/2" from the nut, but the thick, low E is much farther away. Generally, anyway. So in going to a lighter string i'd expect to have to bring the saddles in closer to the nut - except that's not all that's going on here.

The lighter string gauge will have an effect on the action - by the time you adjust the trussrod then the saddles, the lighter gauge set might be a different distance off of the fretboard, in which case there's a different amount of stretching going on as you press a string down to fret a note. And hence a different amount of compensation.

There's another factor that probably only comes into play if you have really heavy piano strings: theoretically a heavy string isn't vibrating all the way out to the end, it's as if it's too stiff to vibrate right where it's held against the saddle. As a result a really heavy string is going to need some additional compensation, or lengthening. Just spitballing here, it probably makes no difference but if it did you're still going to expect to move the saddles towards the nut when you string up with lighter strings.

I still have a few guitars with 9s and I am going to switch one to 10s today...I'll post back with my 'saddle adjustment' results!

[Robert1950]

could be the action is too high, so when you fret it to intonate, your pulling it sharp.

I think this might be the problem. I have to get the action lowered on my Jimmy Vaughan Stratocaster. I also have the same intonation difficulty with the low E string. I had to turn the screw until the saddle was as close to the end of the bridge as it could go.

[smorgdonkey]

I think this might be the problem. I have to get the action lowered on my Jimmy Vaughan Stratocaster. I also have the same intonation difficulty with the low E string. I had to turn the screw until the saddle was as close to the end of the bridge as it could go.
The high E string saddle should be closer to the nut than your B string saddle...so if your B string is ok start at the same position...tweak a bit toward the nut and you should be right in the ball park.

If your A has a decent amount of room left then your low E should be able to 'get in'. Just a tweak back (further away from the nut) of the A string.

[fraser]

I think this might be the problem. I have to get the action lowered on my Jimmy Vaughan Stratocaster. I also have the same intonation difficulty with the low E string. I had to turn the screw until the saddle was as close to the end of the bridge as it could go.

yup robert- a problem i have is i have pretty high action, the a and low e strings are pretty high off the fretboard, i hammer on them a lot with my left thumb and they can rattle a lot, so they need to be on the high side. on some guitars its no problem, i can get the intonation perfect still, but on others that low e causes trouble.
certain bridges cause problems too- on a vintage fender bridge with a short string slot, when you move the saddle back, the string connects with the back of the slot, so the saddle slot needs lengthening, or ill start breaking the string.

another thing that needs looked at is the nut- often by eliminating the nut when intonating all is fine- try setting the intonation by fretting the 2nd and 14th frets rather than open and twelfth- if its better, then your nut needs attention.

[Paul]

yup robert- a problem i have is i have pretty high action, the a and low e strings are pretty high off the fretboard, i hammer on them a lot with my left thumb and they can rattle a lot, so they need to be on the high side. on some guitars its no problem, i can get the intonation perfect still, but on others that low e causes trouble.
certain bridges cause problems too- on a vintage fender bridge with a short string slot, when you move the saddle back, the string connects with the back of the slot, so the saddle slot needs lengthening, or ill start breaking the string.

another thing that needs looked at is the nut- often by eliminating the nut when intonating all is fine- try setting the intonation by fretting the 2nd and 14th frets rather than open and twelfth- if its better, then your nut needs attention.

I also like to take the nut out of the picture when checking/setting intonation. I typically use the 3rd and 15th frets. I don't use a capo, I just fret the notes as if I were playing. I seem to get better results that way.

Intonation is last, of course, after all other playability issues have been dealt with.

[smorgdonkey]

I also like to take the nut out of the picture when checking/setting intonation. I typically use the 3rd and 15th frets. I don't use a capo, I just fret the notes as if I were playing. I seem to get better results that way.


That seems like a logical approach. I never thought of that before.

[fraser]

I also like to take the nut out of the picture when checking/setting intonation. I typically use the 3rd and 15th frets. I don't use a capo, I just fret the notes as if I were playing. I seem to get better results that way.

Intonation is last, of course, after all other playability issues have been dealt with.

yup i wouldnt use a capo for this either, better to be fretted by hand as it would in actual use. i do at times use a capo when setting action and radius at the saddles on a guitar with a fresh nut tho- once im sure its right, i can address nut problems seperately, using the already correct setup at the bridge as my guide-

[Paul]

yup i wouldnt use a capo for this either, better to be fretted by hand as it would in actual use. i do at times use a capo when setting action and radius at the saddles on a guitar with a fresh nut tho- once im sure its right, i can address nut problems seperately, using the already correct setup at the bridge as my guide-

Dan Erlewine (http://www.danerlewine.com/) has a fixture made up that holds the guitar in the playing position on bench to make adjustments as "real world" as possible. I just hold things on one knee and tweak from there.

[smorgdonkey]

I still have a few guitars with 9s and I am going to switch one to 10s today...I'll post back with my 'saddle adjustment' results!
Well...not to bring up an old 'topic within a topic' but I never got to restringing that guitar on the day that I mentioned but I did two guitars today. Some saddles were ok going from 9s to 10s but most had to be moved back a bit.