Heart Disease and Risk Factors

[Wild Bill]

As some of you already know I'm home recuperating from a quadruple heart bypass. The operation was routine and the care from the nurses, doctors and staff was the best anyone could ask. Now all I have to do is get my strength back. I'm not allowed to lift over 10 lbs, which was bad news for my cat as he now has to go on a diet if he wants to get picked up!:smile:

Anyhow, I've been struck by how many people I meet who've had the operation. All kinds of them! I've no doubt that many users on this board have had the operation or had personal experience through family and friends.

Being innately questioning of everything and anything that is just handed down as gospel I thought perhaps some folks might have some input on a basic question:

Is heart disease a true disease from a germ or virus or is it totally the result of risk factors like smoking, poor shape, diet and being fat?

You see, virtually ALL the medical folks who tended me or who run the educational sessions I've attended present heart disease as the result of risk factors. If you eat the wrong foods, get fat and out of shape and pick the wrong grandparents for your genetic history then you get clogged up arteries.

Now, I'd never deny that these risk factors aren't a factor. Both my father and my younger brother have had bypass operations. My youngest brother died suddenly with never showing any warning signs, a month after acing a physical. Blood pressure and sugars all normal. Being overweight and eating junk has GOT to be bad for you.

However, does that really fit the facts? I don't see how that can be the whole picture. The guy in the bed across from me was a marathon runner in great shape. Another guy beside me had been running a health food business for the last 20 years. Neither had any history whatsoever of heart disease in their family.

We all know healthy folks who live and eat right who end up needing bypass operations. So how do they get the disease? If you believe what we're told then if you do all the right things you should never get the disease, right?

I had heard that Sir Dr. Christian Barnard, the South African surgeon who had done the world's first heart transplant, all those years ago, has done thousands of autopsies on heart disease patients. He has examined the plaque that clogged everything up and found that in virtually every case the plaque was full of a variant of the chlamydia virus. That doesn't mean the virus is guaranteed to be the cause but it's certainly something worth considering. For years and years we were told that ulcers were caused by spicy foods and stress. Now we know that they're caused by a true infection. Six weeks of antibiotics and you're cured.

So anybody got any input? Any other stories of guys with no risk factors who still got heart disease? I'm curious if I've made a wrong assumption from too few examples to ponder.

:food-smiley-004:

[Michelle]

Wow, sure glad to hear you're doing well Bill.

This is only my opinion but I think one of the main causes of heart disease is the garbage food we eat, all chemicals, like margarine, pre-digested fast-food, trans-fats, preservatives, etc.

I try to avoid over-processed foods but I have no problem with eggs, butter, steak and I try to eat more veggies. The human body knows what to do with butter but hasn't a clue what to do with margarine.

Another reason I think is STRESS! Certainly causes high BP, but in a stress situation, (fight or flight), body processes are altered, immune sys is compromised. I don't think smoking causes the plaque buildup but the CO in smoke robs all muscles of needed O2.

We live in a toxic environment, city water, air, ground is not safe, our food is not safe and we sit in front of the mind-control device and think everything is ok.

Hope you have a speedy recovery, get that cat on the treadmill! :)

[Starbuck]

Wow, sure glad to hear you're doing well Bill.

This is only my opinion but I think one of the main causes of heart disease is the garbage food we eat, all chemicals, like margarine, pre-digested fast-food, trans-fats, preservatives, etc.

I try to avoid over-processed foods but I have no problem with eggs, butter, steak and I try to eat more veggies. The human body knows what to do with butter but hasn't a clue what to do with margarine.

Another reason I think is STRESS! Certainly causes high BP, but in a stress situation, (fight or flight), body processes are altered, immune sys is compromised. I don't think smoking causes the plaque buildup but the CO in smoke robs all muscles of needed O2.

We live in a toxic environment, city water, air, ground is not safe, our food is not safe and we sit in front of the mind-control device and think everything is ok.

Hope you have a speedy recovery, get that cat on the treadmill! :)

Amen to that Michelle, Glad to hear you're on the Road to recovery Wild Bill. Coming from a family full of diabetes and Heart Disease I'd like the answers to all the same questions. Did any of you hear about the corelation between NOT flossing and heart attack?

[Paul]

Since we are all genetically unique, except for those of us with an identical twin, there will never be a "one size fits all" model for "good health".

Some folks will be genetically pre-disposed to certain medical sensitivities, whether that is a peanut allergy or a risk of heart disease. I recall reading a case of a guy in NYC who is naturally immune to HIV. All of his gay friends had died of HIV, yet he never showed symptoms. Testing revealed an immunity. He won, in a sense, the promiscuity bingo.

Some smokers compete at high level athletics, (Guy LaFleur for one), some non-smokers die of lung cancer at a young age.

I can't really say whether I have any genetic or familial pre-dispositions to any disease, as I am the first generation born in Canada, and I have no way of knowing anything about my grandparents or older generation health.

Soooo, to sum up, I think that good health is merely the process of dying at the slowest rate possible. We can take pro-active measures to die as slowly as possible, mostly through a combination of choice of diet, exercise/activity levels, and limited exposure to hazardous environments. (We all have heard of the long term health concerns of the 9/11 search/rescue/recovery personel, or the fire-fighters at the Plastomet fire a few years back). But even if we do everything right, the "excrement occurs" lottery still hits a lot of us.

Good luck with your recovery, Bill. I know many folks who have had multiple bypass and heart valve surgeries. There seem to be two kinds of recovery. They all start out eager and with a new outlook. Some keep up the opportunity and do their best to die as slowly as possible, but many lose motivation after a few months and revert to old habits. I don't know ANY smokers who had a bypass that did not start smoking again. They all felt so good after the bypass, (apparently the improvement in overall energy and sense of wellness is dramatic after bypass surgery), that a couple of cigarettes a day couldn't hurt could they? Without starting a debate on the merits or hazards of smoking, I have yet to hear of a Doctor recommending smoking as part of a cardiac recovery process.

Perhaps it might be in your interest to put in a small exhaust fan, instead of sniffing all that solder. You might not see the risk, but you owe it to good tone to take every step possible to die as slowly as possible.:smile:

[RIFF WRATH]

Bill I certainly don't have any advise or information to offer other than my heartfelt best wishes for a speedy recovery.
(certainly not the best way to get what is perhaps a well deserved holiday..lol)
all the best
Gerry

[Chito]

Just want to say good to hear you are doing well Bill.

[Wild Bill]

Wow, sure glad to hear you're doing well Bill.

This is only my opinion but I think one of the main causes of heart disease is the garbage food we eat, all chemicals, like margarine, pre-digested fast-food, trans-fats, preservatives, etc.

I try to avoid over-processed foods but I have no problem with eggs, butter, steak and I try to eat more veggies. The human body knows what to do with butter but hasn't a clue what to do with margarine.

Another reason I think is STRESS! Certainly causes high BP, but in a stress situation, (fight or flight), body processes are altered, immune sys is compromised. I don't think smoking causes the plaque buildup but the CO in smoke robs all muscles of needed O2.

We live in a toxic environment, city water, air, ground is not safe, our food is not safe and we sit in front of the mind-control device and think everything is ok.

Hope you have a speedy recovery, get that cat on the treadmill! :)

Thanks Michelle, and everyone else!

As far as stress, as I've said many times I can handle 'most anything as long as ABBA doesn't make a comeback!:eek:

:food-smiley-004:

[zontar]

I know several people with heart problems and related issues--heart attacks, strokes, bypasses, angioplasties, etc.

Genetics plays a big role it seems--yet not always.

One of the best things you can do is practice moderation--and re-examine what that actually means.

Live life, but don't be stupid--at least not too often.

Eat well--in fact you can actually eat more food with fewer calories if you eat well--and it's not all bland.

Get enough sleep.

Listen to your body.

If it happens--it happens--but you'll probably be better off if you take care of yourself.

And yes---that non-exercising, smoking, junk food devouring blob you know may never have any heart problems.

So what?

That's no excuse to not take care of yourself.

And Wild Bill--best wishes on your continuing recovery.

[Wild Bill]

I know several people with heart problems and related issues--heart attacks, strokes, bypasses, angioplasties, etc.

Genetics plays a big role it seems--yet not always.

One of the best things you can do is practice moderation--and re-examine what that actually means.

Live life, but don't be stupid--at least not too often.

Eat well--in fact you can actually eat more food with fewer calories if you eat well--and it's not all bland.

Get enough sleep.

Listen to your body.

If it happens--it happens--but you'll probably be better off if you take care of yourself.

And yes---that non-exercising, smoking, junk food devouring blob you know may never have any heart problems.

So what?

That's no excuse to not take care of yourself.

And Wild Bill--best wishes on your continuing recovery.

Thanks, Zontar!

However, please don't misunderstand my question for this thread. I'm NOT denying risk factors! I'm NOT saying don't take care of yourself! I'm NOT saying go buy a barrel of potato chips and a carton of smokes!

I'm simply a bit mystified about what causes heart disease. From what I see, risk factors and bad genes don't seem to fit all the facts. Still, I've only met a few people who have no family history and have done all the right things that still needed a bypass operation. Any techie knows that you can't come to a scientific conclusion from only one or two incidents, or more simply: "You can't plot a curve from only one point".

So I've put the question in this thread, hoping that more people may be able to give more examples. If no one can (I've asked this question in other forums as well) then I'll conclude that my experience may not have statistical merit. If lots of people chime in and tell us that they've had or known similar contradictory cases then it would seem more likely that there's more to the story.

:food-smiley-004:

[Paul]

Thanks, Zontar!

However, please don't misunderstand my question for this thread. I'm NOT denying risk factors! I'm NOT saying don't take care of yourself! I'm NOT saying go buy a barrel of potato chips and a carton of smokes!

I'm simply a bit mystified about what causes heart disease. From what I see, risk factors and bad genes don't seem to fit all the facts. Still, I've only met a few people who have no family history and have done all the right things that still needed a bypass operation. Any techie knows that you can't come to a scientific conclusion from only one or two incidents, or more simply: "You can't plot a curve from only one point".

So I've put the question in this thread, hoping that more people may be able to give more examples. If no one can (I've asked this question in other forums as well) then I'll conclude that my experience may not have statistical merit. If lots of people chime in and tell us that they've had or known similar contradictory cases then it would seem more likely that there's more to the story.

:food-smiley-004:

Why not ask the folks at the Heart & Stroke foundation? When my wife had her stroke 7 years ago at 41 years old, they were a fantastic resource guiding us through the process of diagnosing a stroke, treatment, recovery and preventive measures.

I think what you are going to find is that there are a lot of 5 sigma people in a 3 sigma world.

[Wild Bill]

Why not ask the folks at the Heart & Stroke foundation? When my wife had her stroke 7 years ago at 41 years old, they were a fantastic resource guiding us through the process of diagnosing a stroke, treatment, recovery and preventive measures.

I think what you are going to find is that there are a lot of 5 sigma people in a 3 sigma world.

Well, I'd prefer a source not in the "industry", Paul. Not that I'm questioning their ethics. It's just that there's a "group think" mentality that I'm trying to avoid.

I've asked doctors and ALL the nurses who have given me educational classes since I've become personally involved. ALL of them said it's all to do with risk factors. NONE of them gave any credence to any other possibility!

Medicine has its biases just like anything else. I've personally gotten "pingponged" between my doctor and my dentist over what turned out to be an infection in my cheek. Because my dentist had diagnosed it my doctor blew it off. Doctors seem to think dentists aren't qualified in such manners.

How many folks who get genuine relief from a chiropractor have had their doctor call the chiropractor a total quack? One of my friends was actually told by her doctor that he would refuse to treat her anymore if she continued to go to a chiropractor!

So at this point I'm simply looking for anecdotal evidence. I have more faith than some with anecdotal evidence. I know that purists will discount such evidence, no matter how many incidents are reported. This is just to satisfy my own curiosity.

:food-smiley-004:

[Paul]

Well, I'd prefer a source not in the "industry", Paul. Not that I'm questioning their ethics. It's just that there's a "group think" mentality that I'm trying to avoid.

That wasn't our experience, not even close to it. They answered questions with a variety of options. The reality with Stroke is that more than half the time they do NOT find a root cause. With my wife we have a strong suspicion, and that was acted on, but we will never know for 100% sure if we have fixed what caused that first stroke.

I've asked doctors and ALL the nurses who have given me educational classes since I've become personally involved. ALL of them said it's all to do with risk factors. NONE of them gave any credence to any other possibility!

What other possibilities are you looking for? There are three that I can fathom, risk factors, heredity/genentics, and faulty design. And obviously I don't put much credence in the concept of "design.":smile:

Medicine has its biases just like anything else. I've personally gotten "pingponged" between my doctor and my dentist over what turned out to be an infection in my cheek. Because my dentist had diagnosed it my doctor blew it off. Doctors seem to think dentists aren't qualified in such manners.

How many folks who get genuine relief from a chiropractor have had their doctor call the chiropractor a total quack? One of my friends was actually told by her doctor that he would refuse to treat her anymore if she continued to go to a chiropractor!

You have your biases too, Wild Bill. Don't let that get in the way of valuable information that may help you die as late as possible.:smile:

So at this point I'm simply looking for anecdotal evidence. I have more faith than some with anecdotal evidence. I know that purists will discount such evidence, no matter how many incidents are reported. This is just to satisfy my own curiosity.

:food-smiley-004:

Annecdotal evidence that goes against your biases is just as valuable as the annecdotal evidence that supports your suspicions.

The husband of a woman I work with recently had a 5 bypass operation. He hits all the risk factors, (450 pounds, 2 to 3 pack a day smoker, completely sedentary lifestyle, every fast food joint in town knows his order before he speaks...etc.) In spite of his physical symptoms, (radial arm pain, chets pain, extreme fatigue, ECG evidence of heart muscle damage, the actual 95% blocked arteries), he still insists he did NOT have a heart attack. He was just a little off his game.

There is a mindset among men that we are somewhat indestructable, and we, (as a somewhat accurate generalization), do not take our health as seriously as we should. My GP believes that most men disappear from the health care system from puberty to prostate cancer. As long as "little Paul" is standing at attention when called to duty, I must be healthy, right?

I need to take a physical next week to validate a life insurance policy. Anybody know how I can lose 40 pounds real quick??:smile:

[bickertfan]

Hey Wild Bill, glad your operation went well. I took an interest in Heart disease after being diganosed with high cholesterol. I am 44 and the only solution offered by my doctor was to take drugs (cholesterol lowering), which I would likely have to take until death. My cholesterol was so high that I could just about be guaranteed to have heart problems.

This solution was unacceptable to me so I went on the search for a better solution. To make a long story short there is a ton of information out there about diet, food, health. Most of it is poorly evaluated and full of opinions, conjecture etc. In the end, I read a book called Eat to Live by Joel Fuhrman MD. This is the best information I have found and highly recommend it. Don't be put off that he is a Doctor, he has way more insight and success than the average MD. I'm 20 lbs lighter and feel many years younger. The info he presents is based on research, not opinions.

The risk factors for heart disease appear to be very well known. It kind of reminds me of the way smoking was 30 years ago. The information was known that smoking was harmful, but there was still some doubt or question of the credibility.

Anyway, it's well worth a look.

[Wild Bill]

Thanks to both Paul and Bickertfan!

Paul, the other factor that I'm suspecting is one you didn't list - an actual germ or virus! Did you read my first post mentioning Dr. Christian Barnard who did the first heart transplant and what he found in autopsies?

If heart disease is actually caused by a germ or virus vector then we are treating symptoms only with surgery and lifestyle options. Not that these are not valuable. If I hadn't had my operation I probably would be dead in 3-4 years. Still, treating a root cause makes everything after the fact unnecessary.

:food-smiley-004:

[Paul]

Thanks to both Paul and Bickertfan!

Paul, the other factor that I'm suspecting is one you didn't list - an actual germ or virus! Did you read my first post mentioning Dr. Christian Barnard who did the first heart transplant and what he found in autopsies?

If heart disease is actually caused by a germ or virus vector then we are treating symptoms only with surgery and lifestyle options. Not that these are not valuable. If I hadn't had my operation I probably would be dead in 3-4 years. Still, treating a root cause makes everything after the fact unnecessary.

:food-smiley-004:

You're right, I read the virus comment yesterday, and forgot today. There may be a link, there may not. Correlation does not necessarily imply causality.

Although this 9 year old article does: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/helthrpt/stories/s19377.htm

Anyway Wild Bill, I suggest you turn off your filters whilst you gather information, and only put the filters back on when you start to analyse. I think we are both cynical enough that we occasionally have trouble turning that filter off, but now is not the time to come out with biases intact.

Biasing comes last, doesn't it???:smile:

[zontar]

Thanks, Zontar!

However, please don't misunderstand my question for this thread. I'm NOT denying risk factors! I'm NOT saying don't take care of yourself! I'm NOT saying go buy a barrel of potato chips and a carton of smokes!

I'm simply a bit mystified about what causes heart disease.
:food-smiley-004:

I got your meaning--that's why I mentioned the oddity that someone without risk factors sometimes has the heart attack and the person with all of them doesn't.

There's nothing wrong with doing what you can to deal with the avoidable risk factors (diet, exercise, smoking, etc.) Most people have at least one risk factor though.

I wouldn't rack your brain too hard--I'd just say take care of yourself. ANd live in moderation.

[Hamm Guitars]

Sorry to hear that you are ill Bill... Hope you're feeling better.

As far as the health thing goes, I have always been of the opinion that not everyone is the same, and not one diet or lifestyle works for everyone.

In my own mind, I've narrowed things down to the type of teeth that you have.

I have carnivorus teeth, so I eat allot of meat - I don't like fruit or vegtables and I figure that as long as I eat things that eat fruits and veggies, I'll be O.K. My taste buds and digestive system seem to be fine on meat, so that's what I run on. If I eat fruit, it gives me a sore stomach and it comes out funny. My body doesn't like to run on sugar, as it is a plant product (allthough I do have a sweet tooth) and it makes me fat. Diabeties runs in my family, but all of my family have carnivorus teeth.

I imagine if someone has herbavorus teeth, that they would run better on plant food. Sugar probably works for them, but they probably suffer from things like high colesterol if they eat allot of fat from meat or dairy products.

Probably a half baked theory, but I'm still kicking at the ripe old age of 38....

[Lester B. Flat]

Did any of you hear about the corelation between NOT flossing and heart attack?

I thought Starbuck's comment deserved a bump. I heard a friend of mine mention this once.

Glad to hear you are on the mend, Bill. And glad to see your still feeling young enough to continue questioning authority!

[auger]

hey wild bill....glad you are feeling better....

well the risk factors thing is only part of it...for sure....

predisposition thru genetics....is key.....and the things that speed that up..
are the risk factors you mentioned.....for sure ....but like was mentioned before this....is the dental factor....bacteria's/germs.....entering the body thru bad teeth....

I had just finished 8 root canals....the month before I had my heart attack...
and triple bypass.....they say the peridontal disease can lead to stroke or heart attack....or heart disease.....so your bug factor can not be overlooked as a root cause.....

now when I go to the dentist I have to take 2000mg of amoxicillin 1 hour before I go or they wont work on my teeth.....so I think they also think it can be a root cause as well...

I had many of the other risk factors as well....
smoker,diabetes,genetics,stress bad eating habits,,,desk job.....though was physically active....and not extremely over-weight.....

anyhow ....take in all they offer for advice and apply it to yourself the best you can....
the whole experience will give you a new out-look on life I think....

I am now smoke free for 1year and 5months...(quit on the day of MY heart attack) after 28 years of smoking 2 to 3 packs a day....plus all other smokeable substances as well....
and frankly speaking....I dont miss it a bit and I dont recall having any symptoms of withdrawl....

once your feeling stronger....try to get out and walk as much as you can ...
it keeps things moving...and you will feel energized.....

I hope you have a speedy recovery...

Auger

[Wild Bill]

hey wild bill....glad you are feeling better....

well the risk factors thing is only part of it...for sure....

predisposition thru genetics....is key.....and the things that speed that up..
are the risk factors you mentioned.....for sure ....but like was mentioned before this....is the dental factor....bacteria's/germs.....entering the body thru bad teeth....

I had just finished 8 root canals....the month before I had my heart attack...
and triple bypass.....they say the peridontal disease can lead to stroke or heart attack....or heart disease.....so your bug factor can not be overlooked as a root cause.....

now when I go to the dentist I have to take 2000mg of amoxicillin 1 hour before I go or they wont work on my teeth.....so I think they also think it can be a root cause as well...

I had many of the other risk factors as well....
smoker,diabetes,genetics,stress bad eating habits,,,desk job.....though was physically active....and not extremely over-weight.....

anyhow ....take in all they offer for advice and apply it to yourself the best you can....
the whole experience will give you a new out-look on life I think....

I am now smoke free for 1year and 5months...(quit on the day of MY heart attack) after 28 years of smoking 2 to 3 packs a day....plus all other smokeable substances as well....
and frankly speaking....I dont miss it a bit and I dont recall having any symptoms of withdrawl....

once your feeling stronger....try to get out and walk as much as you can ...
it keeps things moving...and you will feel energized.....

I hope you have a speedy recovery...

Auger

8 root canals! Man, you've been through the mill! Glad to hear they fixed you up alright!

Nothing wrong with cutting out those risk factors, after 28 years. When we get older our bodies can't handle abuse as well as they did when we were young.

One other thing still puzzles me, Auger. In the hospital the doctors and nurses go to a lot of trouble to give us that heart bypass operation. Certainly my care was fabulous and I'll be forever grateful to those folks.

Still, after all that effort why did they try to poison us with hospital food?:eek:

:food-smiley-004:

[auger]

hey wild bill...
the food has little to be desired....at the best of times.....
and add in the diabetic menu and you have complete ...."tastes like no"....

they were really good people at sunnybrooke...and they have my debt of gratitude.....for putting up with the endless stream of by-pass...work they have to do....
everytime a room emptied out there was someone else to fill it...within the hour....
I especially thank my surgeon...also a musician...(drummer)....he took my mammory artery instead of the arm artery....so I wouldnt lose any feeling for my guitar playing.....

hardest part of the recovery for me was sleeping.....
I went 25 days straight with out any sleep....mostly due to the anesthesia...
and when I finally did sleep I had wild dreams/nightmares....

that went away after a couple of month's.....

I also suffered some "pump head" from the heart lung machine.....
I felt a little fuzzy in my brain in the afternoons....for seveal months after...as well....

you will start to notice a big difference in your energy levels soon...and if you get the chance ,,,do the cardio rehab program....at your local hospital....
its a very good program for building up your strength ....

take each day as it comes at you....and before you know it...you will be feeling better than you did 10 years ago.....

here's to a speedy recovery....

Auger

[jennylee324]

:rockon2: yea, for workout music, you basically need hard-hitting euro-dance music.... nothing else does the job really. Search around on itunes for "euro club hits" or check this link::banana: http://electricfilebox.com/tracks :food-smiley-004:

[zontar]

:rockon2: yea, for workout music, you basically need hard-hitting euro-dance music.... nothing else does the job really. Search around on itunes for "euro club hits" or check this link::banana: http://electricfilebox.com/tracks :food-smiley-004:

That wouldn't make me workout.
But it's all a matter of taste--depending on my mood I listen to blues, R&B, rock, fusion, classical, spoken word, or watch a movie.

[Wild Bill]

yea, for workout music, you basically need hard-hitting euro-dance music.... nothing else does the job really.

Thanks but no thanks!:smile:

I'm an old guy! I was there when Jimi Hendrix first put his guitar aflame! I was a bona fide hippie when Eric Clapton had HAIR!

I was one of those guys who brought disco records to football games when they ran "Disco LP breaking events" at half-time. Some musicians would play in a disco/dance music band but would take great pains to hide it from all their friends! It was considered embarassing. We were raised to be "guitar gods" and most disco tunes were mostly a dance beat and easy chords.

After all, I knew that if I could play it it HAD to be easy, right?

There is a HUGE cultural difference between the generations! In my day (never thought I would say that!) youth culture was in rebellion with established values. We rejected what we called "corporate marketing" that expected us to buy "materialistic crap". We dressed in denim, supplemented with accessories from thrift shops. For dressy occasions we embroidered our denim shirts!

To us disco and its descendants of rave/techno/euro dance was everything we stood against! It was ALL glitter and fashion! Everything the "suits" could coax you to buy! The music had no message except "body stone". The drugs that went with it were all about sensation and physical gratification. This was drastically different from the psychedelic generation that valued "feed your head". That was all about "expanding your mind" and "cosmic consciousness".

It was all a pile of crap of course but that was our value system and it collided violently with that of the disco scene. Our hero was Timothy Leary. Their hero might have been a Paris Hilton, if she had been of age at that time. An "air head - party girl".

I realize now that much of what I feel is simple prejudice and a lot of it is totally wrong but it's in me so strong that I could no more work out to euro dance music than I could walk down the street in a tutu!:eek:

Using music IS a good suggestion, however! Just the playlist is the problem.

I think I'll put on my old Robin Trower vinyl. How about "Day of the Eagle"? THAT should get my heart pumping!:rockon2:

:food-smiley-004:

[allthumbs56]

I think I'll put on my old Robin Trower vinyl. How about "Day of the Eagle"? THAT should get my heart pumping!:rockon2:

:food-smiley-004:

.... or Highway Star, or Radar Love, or Locomotive Breath, or I don't Need No Doctor ....sdsre

[Wild Bill]

.... or Highway Star, or Radar Love, or Locomotive Breath, or I don't Need No Doctor ....sdsre


Good tips but how could I have forgotten?

"Biscuit's Boogie" - Richie Newell with Crowbar

:banana:

[RIFF WRATH]

you need to get copies of the "30 minute workout"......"and a one more and a two more"......that'll get your heart a-pumpin....lol