Open back and closed back ???

[Robert1950]

I think I asked this Q? before on other forums, but the answers were never that clear. Let's say you have two different speakers, and Eminence Legend and a Celestion Greenback. How different would each sound in a open back and then a closed back (front vented maybe?), How different would they sound if driven by an EL34 Marshall and then a BF 6L6 Fender.

Thanks in advance,... robert

[Milkman]

I think I asked this Q? before on other forums, but the answers were never that clear. Let's say you have two different speakers, and Eminence Legend and a Celestion Greenback. How different would each sound in a open back and then a closed back (front vented maybe?), How different would they sound if driven by an EL34 Marshall and then a BF 6L6 Fender.

Thanks in advance,... robert


Closed back will tend to have a tighter bass response, but more importantly and speaking as a sound man, a closed back cab or combo will be MUCH less of a headache for anyone trying to mix out front.


Whenever presented with an open back amp to mic up I request that the guitarist allow me to cover the back with a vinyl backed drop sheet.

[CocoTone]

And how often are you told to go forth and multiply? I know anyone wanting to cover up my amp, can't be much of A sound guy. What do you hope to accomplish doing that/ Wouldn't it make more sense to just move the amp? Usually , on most stages, there would be no mics behind the amp anyways.

CT.

[SQUAREHEAD]

And how often are you told to go forth and multiply? I know anyone wanting to cover up my amp, can't be much of A sound guy. What do you hope to accomplish doing that/ Wouldn't it make more sense to just move the amp? Usually , on most stages, there would be no mics behind the amp anyways.

CT.


I think He would be speaking of the sound that BLEEDS from the back of the amp, "ALL AROUND" the stage... which makes the guitar a major issue as far as stage volume and mixing goes. It's a nightmare for a soundguy, UNLESS the guitar player has the amp right in his ear with VERY little volume. Unfortunately the fact is most combo players crank the snot out of their amps and leave them on the floor so that their pants are blowing in the wind!
I hate combos...
I'll take any closed back sealed cab as a player and a soundguy.

Keith

[GuitarsCanada]

I would agree that's where the Milkman was going with that statement. More to trap that sound from flooding out the back. For mic purposes anyway.

[Robert1950]

Closed back will tend to have a tighter bass response.

Thank you. Other than tighter bass response, what else. What about mids and highs. What would the difference be for Telecaster twang and Humbucker woman tone? :confused-smiley-010

[CocoTone]

I think He would be speaking of the sound that BLEEDS from the back of the amp, "ALL AROUND" the stage... which makes the guitar a major issue as far as stage volume and mixing goes. It's a nightmare for a soundguy, UNLESS the guitar player has the amp right in his ear with VERY little volume. Unfortunately the fact is most combo players crank the snot out of their amps and leave them on the floor so that their pants are blowing in the wind!
I hate combos...
I'll take any closed back sealed cab as a player and a soundguy.

Keith

Well, I do like my closed back Guitarmate. Nice tight bottom end. Amp sounds absolutely huge mic`d. I guess a `57 can`t tell the diff between one Greenback mic`d in a 4X12 than one mic`d in my Traynor.


CT.

[CocoTone]

Thank you. Other than tighter bass response, what else. What about mids and highs. What would the difference be for Telecaster twang and Humbucker woman tone? :confused-smiley-010

I also have a 4X10 Super Reverb, and I've been on stages with a JCM800 into a 4X12, and he wasn't holding back much. The Supere was just as loud, and had just as tight a bottom end as the 4X12.

CT.

[Milkman]

And how often are you told to go forth and multiply? I know anyone wanting to cover up my amp, can't be much of A sound guy. What do you hope to accomplish doing that/ Wouldn't it make more sense to just move the amp? Usually , on most stages, there would be no mics behind the amp anyways.

CT.


The guys who don't want to cooperate generally sound like ass anyway.

Open back amps bleed all over the stage. Don't believe me? Ask another sound man.

The biggest problem you face in trying to mix live bands is TOO MUCH GUITAR coming off the stage. Having an amp shooting sound out the back which then bounces all over the place is a drag.


Most bands don't have a shitty attitude when you try to work with them to make them sound better, particularly when they hear the bands that go on before them. Before you imply that I don't know what I'm doing you might want to check out a live show where I'm behind the console.

Sheesh

It's a matter of cooperation.

[Milkman]

I think He would be speaking of the sound that BLEEDS from the back of the amp, "ALL AROUND" the stage... which makes the guitar a major issue as far as stage volume and mixing goes. It's a nightmare for a soundguy, UNLESS the guitar player has the amp right in his ear with VERY little volume. Unfortunately the fact is most combo players crank the snot out of their amps and leave them on the floor so that their pants are blowing in the wind!
I hate combos...
I'll take any closed back sealed cab as a player and a soundguy.

Keith

Ah, someone else who doesn't know crap eh Coco?

[Robert1950]

I also have a 4X10 Super Reverb, and I've been on stages with a JCM800 into a 4X12, and he wasn't holding back much. The Supere was just as loud, and had just as tight a bottom end as the 4X12.

CT.

Could it be the 4x10s vs the 4X12s ?

[GuitarsCanada]

I have a '68 Super Reverb and the bugger is loud, thats for sure.

[FrogRick12]

Closed back will tend to have a tighter bass response, but more importantly and speaking as a sound man, a closed back cab or combo will be MUCH less of a headache for anyone trying to mix out front.

Whenever presented with an open back amp to mic up I request that the guitarist allow me to cover the back with a vinyl backed drop sheet.

Woe betide the soundguy who wants to cover up the Silver Dogs in the back of my '65 AC 30....

May I suggest that you do what we do when in the studio and on stage?
Stick a Sennheiser 421 in the back of the open back combo amp and blend it in with the guitar sound - you'll be amazed at how it punches up the FOH guitar mix. There's a lot of good stuff coming out of the back of a good open back combo.

Most of the guitar players I know will usually ASK the soundperson if the stage volume is OK. Those who don't usually don't have much stage experience.

[Milkman]

Woe betide the soundguy who wants to cover up the Silver Dogs in the back of my '65 AC 30....

May I suggest that you do what we do when in the studio and on stage?
Stick a Sennheiser 421 in the back of the open back combo amp and blend it in with the guitar sound - you'll be amazed at how it punches up the FOH guitar mix. There's a lot of good stuff coming out of the back of a good open back combo.

Most of the guitar players I know will usually ASK the soundperson if the stage volume is OK. Those who don't usually don't have much stage experience.

It's not simply a matter of levels.


With an open back cab there's just so much sound spilling out from the back. It bleeds into other mics. In the studio, sure, the amp is isolated and putting mics behind, six feet away, off axis et cetera are all good.


For live sound, what I want is as small an amp as the guitarist will tolerate and as directional a cab as possible. It results in a MUCH better sound out front.


Why would anyone object to covering the back of the amp?


It's not going to affect what he hears. It just makes the house mix ten times better.

[FrogRick12]

Covering the back of an open back combo changes the volume (quantity) of the cabinet - it does affect what the player hears.

Let's keep in mind that live sound is not a science experiment to be conducted under controlled conditions -

As Keef might say It's rock 'n f***in' roll innit?

Or as John Lennon once said to Geoff Emerick when Geoff asked him to turn down during the recording of "Revolution" with an open-backed Fender Deluxe:

"It's your job to control the sound. I suggest you do your bloody job!":D

[sysexguy]

1 word: HEAT!!!!

Just my $0.02 but take 100 "full time" soundmen and 2 or 3 may have a slight clue how to do sound....

If a sound man starts with gobos, and raising the drummer cymbals and......you know the gig is going to be hell and the audience, no matter how drunk or stoned catches the - vibe immediately.

real time analyze that! :D

Andy

[GuitarsCanada]

Clearly a hot and highly debatable subject. Are there any more sound men lurking in here with some feedback on this?

[CocoTone]

Clearly a hot and highly debatable subject. Are there any more sound men lurking in here with some feedback on this?

I`ve yet to meet a sound guy outside of a major venue that knew amything about sound. They are indeed a rare breed. You can't expect to srew with someone's rig, and expect them to agree. My sound is MY sound. If you can't capture it properly, then find another gig.
Having said that, there are so many guys out there with monster rigs, or more amp than the room needs, I can see how that would be a problem. How can you play a bar with 100 watts, and a 4X12???:sport-smiley-002:

CT.

[Milkman]

I`ve yet to meet a sound guy outside of a major venue that knew amything about sound. They are indeed a rare breed. You can't expect to srew with someone's rig, and expect them to agree. My sound is MY sound. If you can't capture it properly, then find another gig.
Having said that, there are so many guys out there with monster rigs, or more amp than the room needs, I can see how that would be a problem. How can you play a bar with 100 watts, and a 4X12???:sport-smiley-002:

CT.


And I've met all kinds of guys who didn't understand that co-operating with the tech is the only way to really make the band sound good. Funny, it's usually young kids just starting out who have the rock star attitude. As I've said, the bands going on second and third et cetera, ALWAYS cooperate with me after they hear the FOH sound.

You say "I`ve yet to meet a sound guy outside of a major venue that knew amything about sound."


One might easily say the same about club musicians (I've yet to meet one outside of a major signed act that knew how to get a good sound) but you'd be just as full of crap.


First, I've spent more than thirty years playing gigs including more than eleven years on tour non stop. I've done sound for countless gigs ranging from clubs to festivals.

I can count on one hand the guys who had the arrogant attitude that nobody's going to cover the back of my amp or tell me where to put it.


Those coincidentally were the bands that sounded like crap.


Bands generally hire me (and rehire me) because they've heard my sound or my recordings.


You can dispense with the insinuations that I'm some clown who doesn't know what he's talking about.

You make it seem like I walk in and start barking orders or something.


My approach is decidedly different than that. I start off by saying something like, I'm going to make you guys sound great. Do you have any particular needs in terms of monitor mixes, or preferences in vocal mics? How many of this and that do you need. Would you be willing to sidewash your amps? May I put a drop sheet over the back of this amp?


As I've said. Almost ALL reasonable musicians understand what I'm trying to do and most find it refreshing that the tech actually gives a shit.

[Milkman]

Sorry to be so verbose but....


One of the great things about being both a sound man AND a musician is that you gain a much more comprehensive understanding of the final product, that being the sound reaching the crowd. You tend to see things from both sides, but more importantly from the audience's.


That understanding has cause me to reassess my habits and methods in BOTH capacities.


When I mix, I really work hard for the bands. I don't just set the strips and walk away or stand there and check out the eye candy. I'm constantly PFL'ing the strips and tweaking, constantly bringing levels up and down as needs be.

I see a mix as a dynamic process, not a static one.

[Xanadu]

here's the thing coco, the sound guy has a mute button. SO DON'T **** WITH THE SOUNDMAN!:mad:

[FrogRick12]

As I've said. Almost ALL reasonable musicians understand what I'm trying to do and most find it refreshing that the tech actually gives a shit.

I am not disputing your experience or your qualifications. And yes it is refreshing to hear from a soundman who does give a shit. We work with them every time we play.

I work in a band for two Canadian rock 'n roll icons. This band plays all over North America and Canada. We all use open back combos on stage. We play fairly loud. Our soundman has worked with world-class acts all over the world.
He has never asked me to cover the back of my amp or sidewash it - two things that I would never do.

My amp is directly behind me and it is tilted back angled at the back of my head. And yes - sometimes it bleeds into my vocal mike!

I have played that way for the last 15 years. The complaints about my rig I've had from soundmen I can count on 2 fingers.

Rock 'n roll started with open back combos - not closed cabinets so soundmen have been dealing with this issue for 50 years.

The moral of the story?

Relax. Don't overthink it. ;)

[Accept2]

I dont know why you guys are getting all upset for. Everything in music is a matter of taste. If something works for you great, it doesnt mean its going to work for someone else. Too many times in rock 'n' roll you get the nazi players who think their way is the right way, and everybody else is wrong. Maybe what works for you is great in your situation, and thats great. Share your experiances, and let people know why you think your way is a good approach, but dont shit over other people who disagree with you.
We are guitar players here, not lead singers. And to add to the confusion I use cabs that are half backs, half open/half closed. I like these cabs because they are wired in stereo and let me choose what kind of sound I want, because we all know that sound is always different in every venue, be it indoor or outdoor..............

[SinCron]

Um......Im a lead singer.

[Accept2]

Then the other people in your band have my condolensces.........

[SinCron]

I dont have a band.....yet. But my vocal work is quite good according to others.

[Accept2]

How is your LSD?...........

[Seaners]

I work in a band for two Canadian rock 'n roll icons.


Who is that? Hall and Oates

[Milkman]

I am not disputing your experience or your qualifications. And yes it is refreshing to hear from a soundman who does give a shit. We work with them every time we play.

I work in a band for two Canadian rock 'n roll icons. This band plays all over North America and Canada. We all use open back combos on stage. We play fairly loud. Our soundman has worked with world-class acts all over the world.
He has never asked me to cover the back of my amp or sidewash it - two things that I would never do.

My amp is directly behind me and it is tilted back angled at the back of my head. And yes - sometimes it bleeds into my vocal mike!

I have played that way for the last 15 years. The complaints about my rig I've had from soundmen I can count on 2 fingers.

Rock 'n roll started with open back combos - not closed cabinets so soundmen have been dealing with this issue for 50 years.

The moral of the story?

Relax. Don't overthink it. ;)

Sounds like you're playing big rooms. The problems with open back amps are much more noticeable in clubs, and even more so in rooms of 200 or less bodies.



Out of curiosity, why would you object to side washing unless you don't trust the tech to get your guitar out?

See, my opinion is that PAs are not just sound reinforcement. I view the entire stage setup and PA as an integral unit. Yes there are different ways to do things and certainly my way is not the only one, but in all honesty it works and works well.


Just because you're not getting complaints doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

It can always be better and that's my goal, continuous improvement.

Again, the benefit of having stood in both positions is that I understand the advantages and disadvantages of various set ups in a more broad way.

[FrogRick12]

Who is that? Hall and Oates


Do you mean Jimmy Hall from Bracebridge and Howie Oates from New Liskeard?

I did say Canadian didn't I?:confused-smiley-010

[GuitarsCanada]

Do you mean Jimmy Hall from Bracebridge and Howie Oates from New Liskeard?

I did say Canadian didn't I?:confused-smiley-010

Hey, I remember those guys. :food-smiley-004:

[Milkman]

Hmmm two Canadian icons...


I know Bachman and Cummings are doing shows wothout the other members of the Guess Who.





Do I win the cookie?

[Robert1950]

My original question was:

I think I've asked this Q? before on other forums, but the answers were never that clear. Let's say you have two different speakers, and Eminence Legend and a Celestion Greenback. How different would each sound in a open back and then a closed back (front vented maybe?), How different would they sound if driven by an EL34 Marshall and then a BF 6L6 Fender.

Thanks in advance,... robert

[torndownunit]

I think the perfect combination is a small, open backed tube amp run into a 1x12 closed back cab and both miked. It's a nice small rig to carry around, but gives you a big sound and the best of both worlds.

[Smooth]

Just lay your amp on this and all the sound goes where it is pointed
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/thebluesliner/enhancerelg.gifhttp://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/thebluesliner/enhancershelfview.jpghttp://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/thebluesliner/enhancerdiagram.gifhttp://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/thebluesliner/enhancerfrequencygraph.gif

[Wild Bill]

Just re-read this entire thread and couldn't help but think there's something more basic going on.

To someone who doesn't have much techie education himself there's a tendency to assume that a tech can do ANYTHING!

"It's all magic, after all. So why can't I do whatever I want on the stage? He should easily be able to make it sound good, shouldn't he? If he can't, then there's no way it could be because I was asking the impossible. It must be that he doesn't know his job!"

This always seems a silly and immature attitude to me. Even if the sound man doesn't know his job, if it's 30 minutes to show time do you work with what you have to make the show great or do you go on sounding like crap and just tell the crowd "Sorry! It's all the sound man's fault! You're getting ripped off for this performance but we're sacking his sorry ass and take my word for it, we actually sound great so buy a ticket for the NEXT show!"

Most often the sound man actually DOES know his craft and a prima dona guitarist is just being selfish. Small stages can be virtually impossible to mix without a LOT of gear and some compromises on the stage layout. In the old days of more primitive setups we often heard of how a snare drum tuned to sound great through the PA would absolutely suck to the drummer's ear. The drummer would then complain "But I can't play if it doesn't sound good to ME!".

Obviously, if he gets his way too often then he'll be playing only with himself.

Sometimes a player thinks that because he doesn't hear the complaints then there aren't any. This again is not logical. Any salesman worth his salt knows that most customers don't complain to you, they just never come back! With a musical act you will always keep SOME kind of a following but maybe it never seems to get any bigger. It's always worth while to question why that may be so.

Would you rather have 20 people cheering or 100 people just smiling, if each one is buying about the same amount of beer in the club? 20 kisses on the ass won't do much to pay the rent.

It's ALL about the customer, whether it's with selling cars or getting bigger music gigs. I've gone home early from lots of clubs simply because the sound offended me far more often than because the guitarist wasn't totally cosmic! Maybe it was the sound man's fault or maybe it was because the players got their own way for the stage sound. I couldn't care less! Give me an adequate player anyday through a well-mixed sound system than a guitar god who from the back of the club sounds like crap.

If you run your sound only so it is best on stage then you should put all the chairs up there with you.

And if you think that the sound man should always be able to work around you if he's truly qualified then maybe you should be prepared to show everyone how to do it yourself. If you're right then the gig will sound great, everyone's happy and another sound man learned something.

If you're wrong then maybe YOU'LL learn something!

[Milkman]

Just re-read this entire thread and couldn't help but think there's something more basic going on.

To someone who doesn't have much techie education himself there's a tendency to assume that a tech can do ANYTHING!

"It's all magic, after all. So why can't I do whatever I want on the stage? He should easily be able to make it sound good, shouldn't he? If he can't, then there's no way it could be because I was asking the impossible. It must be that he doesn't know his job!"

This always seems a silly and immature attitude to me. Even if the sound man doesn't know his job, if it's 30 minutes to show time do you work with what you have to make the show great or do you go on sounding like crap and just tell the crowd "Sorry! It's all the sound man's fault! You're getting ripped off for this performance but we're sacking his sorry ass and take my word for it, we actually sound great so buy a ticket for the NEXT show!"

Most often the sound man actually DOES know his craft and a prima dona guitarist is just being selfish. Small stages can be virtually impossible to mix without a LOT of gear and some compromises on the stage layout. In the old days of more primitive setups we often heard of how a snare drum tuned to sound great through the PA would absolutely suck to the drummer's ear. The drummer would then complain "But I can't play if it doesn't sound good to ME!".

Obviously, if he gets his way too often then he'll be playing only with himself.

Sometimes a player thinks that because he doesn't hear the complaints then there aren't any. This again is not logical. Any salesman worth his salt knows that most customers don't complain to you, they just never come back! With a musical act you will always keep SOME kind of a following but maybe it never seems to get any bigger. It's always worth while to question why that may be so.

Would you rather have 20 people cheering or 100 people just smiling, if each one is buying about the same amount of beer in the club? 20 kisses on the ass won't do much to pay the rent.

It's ALL about the customer, whether it's with selling cars or getting bigger music gigs. I've gone home early from lots of clubs simply because the sound offended me far more often than because the guitarist wasn't totally cosmic! Maybe it was the sound man's fault or maybe it was because the players got their own way for the stage sound. I couldn't care less! Give me an adequate player anyday through a well-mixed sound system than a guitar god who from the back of the club sounds like crap.

If you run your sound only so it is best on stage then you should put all the chairs up there with you.

And if you think that the sound man should always be able to work around you if he's truly qualified then maybe you should be prepared to show everyone how to do it yourself. If you're right then the gig will sound great, everyone's happy and another sound man learned something.

If you're wrong then maybe YOU'LL learn something!


We don't always agree, but this time I think you're pretty much bang on.


Something a lot of musicians forget is that many sound men (the best ones)are musicians as well, and some of them are well experienced.

All I want is to make the band sound as good as possible. It's a matter of communicating effectively with the musicians in such a way as to make them confident that you know what to do and that you have their best interests at heart.


On the other hand, if it sounds like a$$ on stage it will certainly have a negative impact on the performance.


It's a mater of balance and cooperation.


In the VAST majority of cases it's a win / win situation and everybody goes home happy.

[Wild Bill]

We don't always agree, but this time I think you're pretty much bang on.



Hey, it had to happen sooner or later! It's just the Law of Averages! :-)

Seriously, if we had a couple of beers together while watching a good blues band you might find we have a lot we agree on!

Being an old "right-wing" hippie still means I'm a hippie! I share most of the same goals. I just don't always think the usual approach is a positive way to achieve them.

Besides. every tech or soundman knows that prima dona players are not a matter of opinion but an actual fact of life! :-)

[CocoTone]

The majority of soundmen and crew, are frustrated musicians. Thats, unfortunately, the truth. BUT,,,co-operation, and good ears all round, help to make it sound good. You can always tell an experienced club band, as they will almost always know how to set up, in almost any room, to get a good sound. Running unmiked is what Combos excell at in my opinion. I've played gazillion club gigs, as well as big sound gigs. I actually prefer small club gigs as far as getting a consistent sound, as you don't have to rely on some frustrated guitarplayer making your rig sound like what he thinks it should sound like.:mad:

CT.

[Milkman]

The majority of soundmen and crew, are frustrated musicians. Thats, unfortunately, the truth. BUT,,,co-operation, and good ears all round, help to make it sound good. You can always tell an experienced club band, as they will almost always know how to set up, in almost any room, to get a good sound. Running unmiked is what Combos excell at in my opinion. I've played gazillion club gigs, as well as big sound gigs. I actually prefer small club gigs as far as getting a consistent sound, as you don't have to rely on some frustrated guitarplayer making your rig sound like what he thinks it should sound like.:mad:

CT.

I'm not frustrated, but I flatter myself that I'm a musician.


As for a soundman making your rig sound like what he thinks it should, you need to hear some of the tones I get to work with, LOL. If it sounds good on stage it sounds good out front but you can't shine $hit as they say.


I have seen WAY too many guys with boutique gear up the ying yang produce tones that make your skin crawl.

I've also heard MANY MANY bands go unmic'd and sound like complete a$$.

The problem is most often that the guitarist is too loud (probably from being deaf as a result of playing too loud).


It's all about attitude and cooperation. If I get a band that isn't interested in cooperating, there's precious little I can do other than TRY to get the vocals out.

[hoser]

I'm not frustrated, but I flatter myself that I'm a musician.


As for a soundman making your rig sound like what he thinks it should, you need to hear some of the tones I get to work with, LOL. If it sounds good on stage it sounds good out front but you can't shine $hit as they say.


I have seen WAY too many guys with boutique gear up the ying yang produce tones that make your skin crawl.

I've also heard MANY MANY bands go unmic'd and sound like complete a$$.

The problem is most often that the guitarist is too loud (probably from being deaf as a result of playing too loud).


It's all about attitude and cooperation. If I get a band that isn't interested in cooperating, there's precious little I can do other than TRY to get the vocals out.

what is it with guitar players?
around these parts it's muddy tones, too much distortion and volume that are the main culprits when it comes to stage sound. There's not a lot you can do as a tech if the players aren't open to working together for a good sound....aside from waiting til after soundcheck and adjusting their amp or making them listen to how shitty it sounds (with the strip flat). Both of which I've had to do.

I hate playing with just vocals mic'ed. It usually sounds like shit. Especially if you've got 150 people on the dance floor soaking up the sound.

Only thing I get frustrated with are guitar players who think they sound great, but really have awful tone.

[Milkman]

I'll tell you one thing. I've been using a Traynor YCV40 for a few weeks now and as soon as I can I'll be buying the matching extension cabinet which is closed back and unplugging the one in the combo. The bottom end is just too slushy.

[hoser]

I did the same thing when I was using a Classic 30 combo. Those Traynor 1x12 cabs sound killer. My father uses a YCV40 too. The cab really makes the amp sound "whole", if that makes sense.

[Milkman]

I did the same thing when I was using a Classic 30 combo. Those Traynor 1x12 cabs sound killer. My father uses a YCV40 too. The cab really makes the amp sound "whole", if that makes sense.

It makes sense alright. It's not about volume. The amp is too loud already. I just need to tighten up and enhance the bottom end for my liking.

[allthumbs56]

Help me out here....

Aren't lower frequencies considered to be omnidirectional and higher frequencies considered to be more directional? Isn't this why you can put a subwoofer in a trunk but a tweeter needs to be practically pointed at the ear?

If this is true (and I know that it is) then how could guitar "bleedthrough" be a problem? In the years that I have played (and been responsible for our P/A)my biggest problems have been with the kick bleeding through the singer's mike and the snare bleeding through the drummer's vocal mike.

If the guitars are mixed at an acceptible level with the other band members on the stage, then I just fail to understand how a highly directional, mid-frequency instrument like the guitar could be considered to be a soundman's biggest challenge.

I'd also be very hesitent to block the flow of air around my tubes with any kind of covering as well. Besides, wouldn't that just nip off the highs - a frequency already largely subdued by the basket and magnet?

[Milkman]

Help me out here....

Aren't lower frequencies considered to be omnidirectional and higher frequencies considered to be more directional? Isn't this why you can put a subwoofer in a trunk but a tweeter needs to be practically pointed at the ear?

If this is true (and I know that it is) then how could guitar "bleedthrough" be a problem? In the years that I have played (and been responsible for our P/A)my biggest problems have been with the kick bleeding through the singer's mike and the snare bleeding through the drummer's vocal mike.

If the guitars are mixed at an acceptible level with the other band members on the stage, then I just fail to understand how a highly directional, mid-frequency instrument like the guitar could be considered to be a soundman's biggest challenge.

I'd also be very hesitent to block the flow of air around my tubes with any kind of covering as well. Besides, wouldn't that just nip off the highs - a frequency already largely subdued by the basket and magnet?


The sound that comes out of the back of a combo or open backed cabinet bounces all over the place. Kick bleeding through a vocal mic? Not likely unless your singer has absolutely zero balls and you have his gain cranked to high heaven.


Bleeding isn't the only problem with open backed cabs. The ambient sound they generate goes EVERYwhere. Sometimes it's a problem and sometimes it's not, but it IS more of a problem than a closed back. Yes guitar frequencies are fairly directional, UNTIL you open the back.


As for being "responsible" for the band's PA, this implies that you're attempting to mix from stage unless I'm misinterpreting you and frankly unless you're out front, you really can't tell much about the FOH sound.

Talk to ten soundmen and ask them what their biggest challenge is with running live sound.


I'll bet my left kidney it's loud guitarists, followed by drummers with no dynamics (pounders). A close third might be singers with low output.

[Wild Bill]

Help me out here....

Aren't lower frequencies considered to be omnidirectional and higher frequencies considered to be more directional? Isn't this why you can put a subwoofer in a trunk but a tweeter needs to be practically pointed at the ear?

If this is true (and I know that it is) then how could guitar "bleedthrough" be a problem? In the years that I have played (and been responsible for our P/A)my biggest problems have been with the kick bleeding through the singer's mike and the snare bleeding through the drummer's vocal mike.

If the guitars are mixed at an acceptible level with the other band members on the stage, then I just fail to understand how a highly directional, mid-frequency instrument like the guitar could be considered to be a soundman's biggest challenge.

I'd also be very hesitent to block the flow of air around my tubes with any kind of covering as well. Besides, wouldn't that just nip off the highs - a frequency already largely subdued by the basket and magnet?

A stage is not a car and guitar cabinets are not auto subwoofers!

ALL frequencies are directional! It's just that in a car things are too small to establish any directivity on the low frequencies. Sadly, even home speakers today are too small to focus the bass as well.

To those of us old enough to remember pre-80's gear, the new stuff is kinda crap sold by marketing hype!

Next time you go to a movie theatre, take a look at the speaker cabinets mounted on the walls. Notice - they're BIG!

They have to be if you're gonna get any efficiency! Google up Altec Lansing and find a history page. They worked out all this stuff years ago. Look at the horns they used - maybe 22" wide that spread the highs out across the entire theatre.

If you don't want to believe that bass cabs can be directional then look up guys like Klipsch and folded horn cabinets.

I echo the words of the Milkman but I just wanted to add my .02 that you're talking apples vs. oranges.

[allthumbs56]

I am not an expert in sound reinforcement and I'm not looking to start anything contentious - I am just stating my own personal experience.

I am not a professional "FOH" guy - just a guitar player who takes responsibility for my band's sound. I have been doing it for a long time though and have done hundreds of bar gigs. With maybe a dozen exceptions, we have always used our own P/A (my first was a Bogen with Traynor columns). Over the years, we have used open backs, closed backs, and multitudinous combinations thereof.

I can understand that you might have a problem with a band member who plays too loud (or too quietly) and I have too - but I can't say that I have ever had a problem with an open backed cabinet messing up our sound or being my worst nightmare.

As for the physics - I don't get it either. I don't understand how an open back guitar amp can bounce sound around the stage more than a drum or cymbal or how lower frequencies can be as directional as higher frequencies.

But I'm curious and never to old to learn.


_______
Chris

[Milkman]

I am not an expert in sound reinforcement and I'm not looking to start anything contentious - I am just stating my own personal experience.

I am not a professional "FOH" guy - just a guitar player who takes responsibility for my band's sound. I have been doing it for a long time though and have done hundreds of bar gigs. With maybe a dozen exceptions, we have always used our own P/A (my first was a Bogen with Traynor columns). Over the years, we have used open backs, closed backs, and multitudinous combinations thereof.

I can understand that you might have a problem with a band member who plays too loud (or too quietly) and I have too - but I can't say that I have ever had a problem with an open backed cabinet messing up our sound or being my worst nightmare.

As for the physics - I don't get it either. I don't understand how an open back guitar amp can bounce sound around the stage more than a drum or cymbal or how lower frequencies can be as directional as higher frequencies.

But I'm curious and never to old to learn.


_______
Chris


Well to put it simply, the guitarist only really hears what's coming out of the front of the amp. The sound bouncing out the back is going other places and impacts FOH because the guitarist doesn't compensate for it by turning down.


Generally guys playing open backed amps will tend to be louder on stage than guys playing closed backs, not because they're power crazy, but because they can't really hear all the sound they're generating.

The device posted earlier which redirects the sound eminating from the back through a port in the front seems like a viable solution if you prefer the sound of open backs.

By the way, I don't meant to imply that just because you don't do sound professionally you don't know anything. It's just a different sound out front than on stage altogether and it's difficult or impossible to judge from stage what the impact of the two different designs is.

[allthumbs56]

Well to put it simply, the guitarist only really hears what's coming out of the front of the amp. The sound bouncing out the back is going other places and impacts FOH because the guitarist doesn't compensate for it by turning down.


Generally guys playing open backed amps will tend to be louder on stage than guys playing closed backs, not because they're power crazy, but because they can't really hear all the sound they're generating.

The device posted earlier which redirects the sound eminating from the back through a port in the front seems like a viable solution if you prefer the sound of open backs.

By the way, I don't meant to imply that just because you don't do sound professionally you don't know anything. It's just a different sound out front than on stage altogether and it's difficult or impossible to judge from stage what the impact of the two different designs is.

I'll buy that - same as a player with his amp pointed at the back of his knees.

It takes some discipline for each player to understand how their sound is interacting with their fellow bandmates. I play with some pretty good guys who trust me when I tell them to turn up or down. We also take turns at practice standing "out front" so everyone can gauge the balance.

Milkman, I noticed that you picked up a YCV40. I used one of those for a few years (my rythym player is using it now). Stock, that amp really throws a high frequency "sizzle" a long way out front and you won't neccesarily hear it from where you're playing - but the front row will. I got some good results with a tube upgrade and replaced the 70/80 with a G12H30 (just don't play it flat out and you won't blow it). Currently, I'm using a Mesa DC-5 combo paired with a 1-12 closed-back extension (G12H30 loaded).

For the record, I took, nor intended to give any offence. 40+ years of hacking away at a little piece of wood with strings on it and still so much to learn.:rockon:


________
Chris

[Milkman]

I'll buy that - same as a player with his amp pointed at the back of his knees.

It takes some discipline for each player to understand how their sound is interacting with their fellow bandmates. I play with some pretty good guys who trust me when I tell them to turn up or down. We also take turns at practice standing "out front" so everyone can gauge the balance.

Milkman, I noticed that you picked up a YCV40. I used one of those for a few years (my rythym player is using it now). Stock, that amp really throws a high frequency "sizzle" a long way out front and you won't neccesarily hear it from where you're playing - but the front row will. I got some good results with a tube upgrade and replaced the 70/80 with a G12H30 (just don't play it flat out and you won't blow it). Currently, I'm using a Mesa DC-5 combo paired with a 1-12 closed-back extension (G12H30 loaded).

For the record, I took, nor intended to give any offence. 40+ years of hacking away at a little piece of wood with strings on it and still so much to learn.:rockon:


________
Chris


My amp doesn't throw much high end or any other frequencies out front because I side wash it and angle it so it's pointing directly at my head when I take one step back from the mic. I'll be using the closed back cab for the next gg and disconnecting the speaker in the combo.

We side wash ALL stage amps and actually put them behind backdrop whenever possible.