Reverb - amp or pedal?

[Stratin2traynor]

Here's a question for y'all:

Where does reverb fall within an amp circuit and does reverb generally sound better when it is built in or when you use a reverb pedal?

[mhammer]

If your goal was the cleanest possible signal you could attain, and the signal path was up to that task, then it wold not make a pinch of difference where you situated the reverb in the chain of events.

Few people, and few amps, work that way though. So, the question you want to ask yourself is "How good does clipping sound when the signal is reverbed first vs afterwards?". And the answer is that the very best reverb tones you have ever loved were generally added in post-production. In other words, the player played the way they did, the amp clipped as it did, the speakers broke up as they did, and the producer ran what was recorded through some reverb, whether plate, spring, digital or the good old bathroom.

For me, that means that what most players truly want is a reverb path that is situated as close to the very end as possible. If you use a pedal, and can stick the reverb in an effects loop in the amp, that is probably good. If its onboard reverb, then the optimum is to tap the signal early on, feed that to the reverb springs, anmd then blend in the reverb signal much further downstream, preferably just before the power amp.

Essentially, you want to have the reverb mapped onto the accumulated signal changes from all your effects right on up to the output of the amps front-end.

Why? First off, since reverb extends the duration of the signal (by definition), it will not end up driving any stages you want to break up in a coherent or orderly manner. Second, if the amp is fed an already reverbed signal, you won't be able to set the tone of the reverb and main signal separately (even if you don't have separate tone control over the reverb in the amp, you can still change tone-shaping components for the reverb path separately).

One of the most innovative approaches to reverb I've seen in a while came in the form of an amp from SMF (at least I think so) reviewed in Guitar Player about a half dozen years ago. This was a two-speaker combo that reserved one power amp and speaker for the reverb signal only, much like the way the JC amps used one channel for the wet signal and another for the dry to achieve a much richer chorus sound. The reviewer could not say enough good things about it.

[Wild Bill]

Here's a question for y'all:

Where does reverb fall within an amp circuit and does reverb generally sound better when it is built in or when you use a reverb pedal?

+1 on the MHammer advice! I would just add that if you want to go vintage many players like an outboard standalone tube reverb like the old Fender unit of the 60's. It was placed in the signal path like a pedal or in the effects loop.

Most Fender amps have only one reverb knob that basically mixes the wet reverb signal back into the main signal. The standalone unit also had a tone control and most important, something called "dwell". This controlled how hard you drove the input of the spring tank, allowing much more variation in tones. Most jazz guys love going light on the dwell and just a bit of reverb mixed in. This brightens up the tone without the reverb being obvious. Heavenly!

Most techs have or could build you a similar standalone tube unit. Mhammer would probably whomp up something with a dual op amp and an LM384 IC that although solid state would probably sound just as good. After the signal has bounced down those springs I dunno if there would still be any benefit to tube tone, except for being classy, of course! :smile:

I think the Fender re-issues are around $650, which seems a bit high to me for what's involved. There are kits and chassis available, such as from Ted Weber's speakers site, if you wanted to "roll your own".

Just FYI!

:food-smiley-004:

[Budda]

i like amp reverb, havent mucked about with a pedal yet.

I really want a nice reverb pedal, as its really good for ambient stuff etc. thought i could live without it, but i was wrong haha

[Wild Bill]

i like amp reverb, havent mucked about with a pedal yet.

I really want a nice reverb pedal, as its really good for ambient stuff etc. thought i could live without it, but i was wrong haha

Just remember, pedals contain solid state stuff. You can kick them all you want and all you get it straight reverb.

Now, old fashioned tube reverb units have springs! You can kick, bash and bop them to get those great early Zep, early Pink Floyd psychedelic sounds!

That's important!:smile:

:food-smiley-004:

[Stratin2traynor]

A lot of great info you guys. Thanks a lot. I've been asking a lot of amp/tech questions because I am considering getting a DIY 18 watt or Trinity TC-15 (based on ajcoholics rants and raves - damn you!!). I noticed that the kits do not have reverb or effects loops. While I am not a huge reverb user I like it once in a while, depending on what I'm playing. I also like having an effects loop to run delay and modulation through. Not a must but a nice to have.

[Stratin2traynor]

Just remember, pedals contain solid state stuff. You can kick them all you want and all you get it straight reverb.

Now, old fashioned tube reverb units have springs! You can kick, bash and bop them to get those great early Zep, early Pink Floyd psychedelic sounds!

That's important!:smile:

:food-smiley-004:

Funny you should mention that. I was watching "No Quarter" last night and watched Jimmy Page do just that. Not sure if it was a reverb unit or not but it sounded cool.

[Glasstone Amps]

A lot of great info you guys. Thanks a lot. I've been asking a lot of amp/tech questions because I am considering getting a DIY 18 watt or Trinity TC-15 (based on ajcoholics rants and raves - damn you!!). I noticed that the kits do not have reverb or effects loops. While I am not a huge reverb user I like it once in a while, depending on what I'm playing. I also like having an effects loop to run delay and modulation through. Not a must but a nice to have.

That would be tons of fun to build a kit like that! It wouldn't be hard to add a loop to the amp to run effects. Adding a spring reverb would be more complex but not too bad.

[Stratin2traynor]

It would be a lot of fun. I've built some BYOC pedals and have modded a few pedals as well. Didn't find that too hard at all. So I figure, as long as I don't electrocute myself, I could probably build an amp without too much problem, as long as I had got instructions.

So an effects loop isn't too complicated to do? That's a bonus. I use the loop on my Peavey to run delay and modulation. It's handy.

[Budda]

if i could afford a spring reverb pedal, i'd be all over it! but im not sure how much they are, and definitely cant afford one right now.

i just want some form of reverb to tide me over haha

[Glasstone Amps]

It would be a lot of fun. I've built some BYOC pedals and have modded a few pedals as well. Didn't find that too hard at all. So I figure, as long as I don't electrocute myself, I could probably build an amp without too much problem, as long as I had got instructions.

So an effects loop isn't too complicated to do? That's a bonus. I use the loop on my Peavey to run delay and modulation. It's handy.

Just remember to always keep one hand in your back pocket when probing around a live amp, and wear insulated shoes. If you ever need help figuring out how to add an effects loop on a kit, let me know. I could look at your schematic and offer some suggestions. :smile:

[Stratin2traynor]

Excellent. Thanks a lot. I first have to decide what gear to get rid of to raise coin for this kit. I have a few things in mind that will likely cover it but have to check and double check first. Just to be sure I don't want it anymore.

[mhammer]

Following up on the SMF amp idea I mentioned earlier, one viable way to get superlative reverb tone is to simply get another inexpensive amp that has reverb, split your signal early in the signal path, and use one output to feed a dedicated reverb amp. Or, set the second amp for clean, and stick a solid-state reverb pedal in the path going to that amp.

I realize that doesn't sound particularly cost effective, but the thing is that reverb signal has only limited bandwidth anyways, so the quality of that second amp can be pretty crappy if you have little coin to spend. It takes more money to get an amp that combines good reverb with good tone for the dry signal. It takes considerably less to get an amp that has a passable reverb and just use the reverb signal from that amp (i.e., cancel the dry sound internally).

I raised objections to sticking a reverb pedal in front of an amp that you want to set for high gain and distorted tone, but note that I also indicated that reverb could be situated before an amp if the amp was run clean. In fact, that is precisely the manner in which those outboard Fender units were traditionally used, which is why people could stick them ahead of the amp input and no complains about crappy distortion tone. The upshot is that use of a second amp dedicated to either a reverbed input signal or use of its own internal reverb, can help nail that holy grail of luscious overdrive tone and beautiful wet reverb wash.