DI Box Help - usage and purchase

[SkyFire_ca]

hey folks, hopefully i'll find an expert or 2 here (seems to be plenty around)...
I'm looking for some advise for using DI boxes. I'm familiar with what they do (convert a signal to what a mixer can use), but i've been looking over some of the models (what i can find easily) and it's really hard to tell what I would need.
normally someone says "what are you planning" about this point so...
The plan is to use DI boxes instead of amp Mic's for a rehersal space for impromtu recording, etc etc. probably with a USB mixer/pc interface, but i doubt that part matters as it takes XLR or 1/4.
I'd also like to be able to use the DI's for stage (duh...). With the intent of all this to avoid the clutter of Amp mics, I'm assuming the DI would need to take a speaker level input (so between amp and cab, right?) though, aside from the device stating that it can, is there any other way to know?
And lastly, is this feasible? Will i be happy with the sound, or will i find it cold or sterile compared to the real thing? (like a cheap mic...)
I'm mainly considering this as practice space is limited and the extra mics and stands would really be in the way. as well, a "room" mic could be effective enough to record ideas or get a feel for how we're doing, but wouldn't be usable for a live setup.
Lastly, the budget concern... I've seen DI's priced anywhere from $30 to $200 for a single device, and my limit is around the middle. If the project itself is feasible, am i likely to find a good quality device for under $100? obviously, the lower the $$ figure, the easier to convince the other guitar/bass that this is a desirable plan.( 3 amps... 3 boxes...)
Any helpful hints or advice is appreciated at this point, and any model-specific references are more than welcome.

PS. I've noticed some models have a -10 to -30db "pad" or some such, does this act as an attenuator to my speaker signal? (doubt it, but just gotta know)
SkyFire

[iaresee]

Ahh. What you want is not a standard DI. A standard DI converts a high impedance line level signal into a low impedance mic level signal, usually converting an unbalanced to a balanced signal in the process.

Do not put a standard, run of the mill, DI between your speaker output and your speaker. The results will be unpleasant. Possibly fatal.

What you want is a Palmer PDI-09 The Junction (http://www.palmergear.com/pdi09.shtml) -- it takes a speaker output level signal (which is WAY more power than the signal your guitar outputs, which is the type of signal a standard DI is designed to handle). It goes between your speaker and your speaker output. It has a filtered DI output that eliminates the need for a mic and can be connected right up to your mixer or DAW.

I'm a PGA-04 (http://www.palmergear.com/pga04.shtml) owner and user and I think they sound great. There's a thread on here with some samples of my Koch -> my PGA-04 (http://www.guitarscanada.com/Board/showthread.php?p=84897#post84754). The PDI-09 is the filter section of the PGA-04, just no dummy load. It's not the same thing as mic'ing your cab. There's no "air" in the sound. You'll have to add the room back in in the mixing process (I really like Cubase's Roomworks reverb VST for this). It takes some getting used to but the results can be great and the convenience when tracking live (or in an apartment in the case of the PGA-04) is unbeatable.

[Hamm Guitars]

The short answer is you are looking for a DI with a cabinet simulator function to do the job as you describe it.

Using a normal DI (even one with a step down for speaker level signals) does not give the results that you might expect as the guitar cabinet is (usually) not full range and the PA system is.

Hughs & Kettner used to make something in the early nineties called a 'Red Box' which was, in my opinion, the best guitar cabinet simulator. I have used other ones that worked pretty well that were built into amps and processors as well.

If you have an FX Loop, you can use a standard DI and take the signal from that point. It will give you a pretty good idea of how different your sound is without your cabinet colouring it. Replacing your guitar cabinet with a a full range PA cabinet would also give you a pretty good idea as well.

[SkyFire_ca]

so not nearly as simple i was hoping. Is it likely to sound similar to the recording line out on many amps? (my JCM900 had one, sounded... good, but not like the whole amp)

I did notice the speaker simulator, and i had the idea from Samhill's review of the Palmer DI. I hadn't seen that option on very many, so i didn't think it was a big deal.

I suppose the words "Give it a try" have never been more accurate?

lemme ask this again, the -whatever Db drops on these, does that attenuator the speaker signal?
SkyFire

[Hamm Guitars]

I think you are asking about the Pad switch that is on most DIs.

No that is not for speaker level attenuation, that is just used to attenuate a hot preamp signal. A DI that will handle a speaker level will be clearly marked as either having a seperate speaker level I/O or a switch that is labeled to indicate speaker level as oposed to line level.

Passing speaker level signals through a DI that does not support speaker levels will toast it. You could modify the DI to accept speaker level signals, but it is hardly worth it. You would be far better off using the preamp signal to drive the DI.

Chances are if your power amp stage is responsible for 'your sound' than you are probably really loud on stage and the speaker level DI won't make all that much of a difference unless you are playing with a PA with 30KW or more in a really big room (or outdoors), on a really big stage.

[iaresee]

Is it likely to sound similar to the recording line out on many amps?
Did you listen to the clip I pointed you at? A Palmer DI doesn't sound like a line out at all. Your typical line out is mean to drive another power amp/speaker cabinet combination and are full frequency preamp signal taps. The Palmer units mimic the speaker's limited response so you get something that's more pleasing to the ear.

I did notice the speaker simulator, and i had the idea from Samhill's review of the Palmer DI. I hadn't seen that option on very many, so i didn't think it was a big deal.
I can only think of a few companies making these units: Palmer, the H&K box Hamm mentioned, uhh...that's all the comes to mind.

I suppose the words "Give it a try" have never been more accurate?
FWIW the Palmer units hold their value pretty well. You can find them used from time to time on The Gear Page (http://www.thegearpage.net/). And their Canadian distributor is Saved By Technology (http://www.savedbytech.com/).

[SkyFire_ca]

So, It sounds like my options are fairly simple...
Buy expensive DI - have good speaker-level usage, compatible with more amps, etc...
Buy cheaper DI... can only use on Preamp level signals, so the amp would need a parallel FX loop. cause i can't hook that direct right?

I'm really just looking for a very cost effective solution to what seems like a simple problem...
Recording (quality not such an issue) in a small space with a variety of amps. Eg. Traynor YCV-40 (has parallel loop), JCM800 halfstack (dunno) and Peavey Delta Blues (and probably others)
the reason the space is an issue, there's really no room for the mics and stands to do things that way. and we don't own the mics or DI's yet, so we have flexability. though, the bass player has a DI box kickin around, just not sure what it is or what it can do...
SkyFire

[Greg Ellis]

Mics might still be your best "low tech" solution.

I've seen 4x12 cabs mic'ed up by hanging the mic by its cable, so it dangles in front of one of the speakers (e.g. pin the mic cable with the weight of the head on the cab, or tie it to something). I'm not sure what keeps it from blowing in the wind and thumping on the grill cloth, but there's probably a simple answer to that.

You could likely work out similar stuff for the combos, just tie the mic cable to the handle.

Not ideal, but doesn't use any space to speak of, and easy. And you get the sound of the speaker, not the preamp.

[Paul]

Use this mic:

http://www.sennheiserusa.com/newsite/productdetail.asp?transid=500074

http://shop.sennheiserusa.com/retail2002/images/catalog/e609silver_normal.jpg

and mount it like this:

http://www.guitarscanada.com/Board/showpost.php?p=95555&postcount=7

Voila!!! No mic stands!!!

[iaresee]

Are you trying to track the band live? Or one instrument at a time?

[SkyFire_ca]

Ahhh never thought of the old "Hang the Mic" trick, though where the amps are, they'd be constantly bumped around, though not much of a concern between songs. The "Off-Axis" point made from the linked post is a good one though...

iaresee, We're trying to track the band live. mostly for rehersal's and writing purposes. Alot of "See! that's what u did!" and stuff like that. In a live setting, Mic stands etc won't be in the way as badly, so liveable. and the local sound guys all have decent instrument mics.

Thx for all the great advice so far guys!
SkyFire

[iaresee]

iaresee, We're trying to track the band live. mostly for rehersal's and writing purposes. Alot of "See! that's what u did!" and stuff like that. In a live setting, Mic stands etc won't be in the way as badly, so liveable. and the local sound guys all have decent instrument mics.
Why don't you just drop a couple of mics in the room and capture the ambient sound? If it's a small room and you're all playing reasonably balanced already find a few points in the room where you like how things sound a stick a mic where your head is at that point.