Help! THIS just arrived in the mail

[traynor_garnet]

I just bought an old Traynor Bassmate (the cube shaped one, with only volume and tone, running 6V6s) from an online store. The store assured me the amp was working perfectly and had no mods or replaced parts outside of a three prong plug and a replaced speaker.

The amp arrived well packed, I plugged it in and played for about a minute. All of a sudden the most horrendous noise came out of it (zzzztttt) so I immediately turned it off. I changed all the tubes thinking they may have been damaged in transit, fired it up, played for a bit and then the exact same sound bellowed out of the amp!

After a closer look I see that the filter cap is literally hanging by its wires (see pic). I'm not sure if this was replaced at some point or what, but it isn't really even mounted to the chassis! I then looked at the circuit board and see electrical tape on components! Also, I think there may be some significant mods/replaced part on the circuit.

Not being a tech I'm a bit lost but wondered if anyone had a picture of a stock 6V6 bassmate chassis and circuit board. If anyone can help me out with ANY pics or info/comments I would very much appreciate it.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8850/circuitbigxc7.jpg

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7603/haginbigah2.jpg

Thanks for any help,
TG

[SinCron]

There are a few factors here.

One. How much you paid for it and how much a working one is worth. If you got it for a super great deal and you can get it fixed for a good price and still save, get it fixed. Also, if the store in question has repair services, send it back for repair and if they refuse, say that the item was not as advertised. Also, how well packaged was it? At the very least you should be able to get a full refund. Maybe even get the shipping money back so you don't say a bunch of bad things about them (people should know about bad companies). I guess I forgot where I was going with the few factors thing. Oh well. Post info!

[traynor_garnet]

The store has offered a full refund if I return it (although I would pay for return shipping) or a partial refund if I decide to keep the amp. I certainly didn't get "a deal" on the amp but if I can get it running for a low price I will probably take the partial refund.

I know the hanging filter cap can be fixed (I think the "bzzsstt" sound is the wire shorting out when it hits the chassis) but I want to make sure it hasn't been heavly modded (which is why a pic of another amp would be helpful).


TG


There are a few factors here.

One. How much you paid for it and how much a working one is worth. If you got it for a super great deal and you can get it fixed for a good price and still save, get it fixed. Also, if the store in question has repair services, send it back for repair and if they refuse, say that the item was not as advertised. Also, how well packaged was it? At the very least you should be able to get a full refund. Maybe even get the shipping money back so you don't say a bunch of bad things about them (people should know about bad companies). I guess I forgot where I was going with the few factors thing. Oh well. Post info!

[SinCron]

l then I'd go for the partial refund. Just out of curiosity, what site was it. You can PM it to me if you don't want to announce it. I just want to make sure I don't get screwed :P.

[torndownunit]

Ya I would like to know the dealer as well. That is pretty blatantly misleading information they gave you. If they opened the amp up at all, the electrical tape would be pretty obvious. You couldn't miss it.

[traynor_garnet]

Hi,

For now I am not going to disclose the dealer's name since they immediatly offered a return or partial refund and admitted their error. I don't want to sully their name unfairly if they are stand up people.

OTOH, I WOULD very much like to see what mods/repairs were done to this circuit so I can make a decision about a return or refund. Somebody out there must own one of these things. Do those red caps look original? What's up with the piggy back caps and th electrical tape???

TG

[Wild Bill]

Hi,

For now I am not going to disclose the dealer's name since they immediatly offered a return or partial refund and admitted their error. I don't want to sully their name unfairly if they are stand up people.

OTOH, I WOULD very much like to see what mods/repairs were done to this circuit so I can make a decision about a return or refund. Somebody out there must own one of these things. Do those red caps look original? What's up with the piggy back caps and th electrical tape???

TG

I'm not good with pictures. Give me a schematic any day. It seems with pictures you always have wires and parts hidden or blocked from view. Schematics are so nice and clear with no lies.

Still, I've worked on lots of these and from what I see yours looks like someone just hung a replacement filter cap in the power supply, most likely because the original ones had gotten too old to work properly.

So I would bet 3 beer that you need a proper cap job to replace the old filters. Replacing just one is like replacing just one brake shoe in your car. To do it right would cost about $125 or so, at least on my bench. Any tech that knows how to do the cap job properly would also have no problem giving a quick check to make sure the circuit was still stock. From your picture I doubt if it would take any extra time. Even if there were some mods, when you've already had the amp open to do the caps it would be a quick job to reverse the mods anyway. If the tech doesn't know enough to quickly handle any such mods then don't trust him to change the filter caps! To a real tech it's not a big deal.

If I were you I'd lever some kind of discount to help pay for the cap job and keep the amp. In fact, I'd keep the amp anyway. There will be lots of guys willing to pay you to take it off your hands.

:food-smiley-004:

[traynor_garnet]

I'm not good with pictures. Give me a schematic any day. It seems with pictures you always have wires and parts hidden or blocked from view. Schematics are so nice and clear with no lies.

Still, I've worked on lots of these and from what I see yours looks like someone just hung a replacement filter cap in the power supply, most likely because the original ones had gotten too old to work properly.

So I would bet 3 beer that you need a proper cap job to replace the old filters.
:food-smiley-004:

Thanks for the info Bill.

Somebody sent me a picture of their old bassmate circuit and it is identical to mine except for the filter cap and the weird tape job on the one replaced electrolytic cap.

Regarding the filter cap, I'm not sure if it was a replacement or if it was jarred loose and broke off its lugs; it probably is a replacement because there is an extra cap added to my filter.

I'm not sure if the amp needs a total cap job or not. Somebody told me the loud "bzzzzt" sound is caused by the filter cap shorting to the chassis (either the wire touches or is close enough to ark). But outside of that, the amp is very quite while operating; probably why the store owner thought it was a ok having quickly plugged in and played.

I think I will keep the amp as these appear to be simple fixes and it isn't heavily modeed. Now I have to see if my tech can look at this thing before 2009! Man, one good tech in town means endless waiting . . .

TG

[Wild Bill]

Thanks for the info Bill.

Somebody sent me a picture of their old bassmate circuit and it is identical to mine except for the filter cap and the weird tape job on the one replaced electrolytic cap.

Regarding the filter cap, I'm not sure if it was a replacement or if it was jarred loose and broke off its lugs; it probably is a replacement because there is an extra cap added to my filter.

I'm not sure if the amp needs a total cap job or not. Somebody told me the loud "bzzzzt" sound is caused by the filter cap shorting to the chassis (either the wire touches or is close enough to ark). But outside of that, the amp is very quite while operating; probably why the store owner thought it was a ok having quickly plugged in and played.

I think I will keep the amp as these appear to be simple fixes and it isn't heavily modeed. Now I have to see if my tech can look at this thing before 2009! Man, one good tech in town means endless waiting . . .

TG

TG, if the caps are original then you need new ones, period! When those filter caps were made they were only guaranteed for 5 years. Many were guaranteed for only one year. It was generally accepted that decent filter caps would last at least 10-15 years but after that you were on borrowed time.

When was that amp built?:eek:

Filter caps dry up even if the amp is not used and in storage. Sometimes you can have amazing flukes of luck. I've worked on one old SilverTone owned by Willie P Bennett that had filters plainly marked "guaranteed for one year" that are still working just fine.

People win lotteries too.

Besides, you only tack a new filter across an old one if the old one is not working. Normally it's a test thing. When you connect the new filter if the old one is failing you instantly hear the hum disappear. So why is that taped up cap there at all? 'Cuz the filter(s) are bad!

Only a total kluge would leave the new cap connected across the old one, even if nicely done and not with tape like in yours. The old cap could short and cause a big problem. Also, as I said before, when one cap needs replacing you do them all. It's like replacing only one brake shoe in your car - just nuts!

Even if the old caps are not so far gone as to allow obvious amounts of hum when they're starting to go you may begin to get "ghost notes" as you play through the amp.

Anyhow, it's up to you. I'm just giving you the same advice I'd give if you brought the amp into my shop:

Pay me now or pay MORE later!:smile:

:food-smiley-004:

[gpower]

[QUOTE=Wild Bill;90586]TG, if the caps are original then you need new ones, period! When those filter caps were made they were only guaranteed for 5 years. Many were guaranteed for only one year. It was generally accepted that decent filter caps would last at least 10-15 years but after that you were on borrowed time.

When was that amp built?:eek:

Filter caps dry up even if the amp is not used and in storage. Sometimes you can have amazing flukes of luck. I've worked on one old SilverTone owned by Willie P Bennett that had filters plainly marked "guaranteed for one year" that are still working just fine.

People win lotteries too.

Besides, you only tack a new filter across an old one if the old one is not working. Normally it's a test thing. When you connect the new filter if the old one is failing you instantly hear the hum disappear. So why is that taped up cap there at all? 'Cuz the filter(s) are bad!

Only a total kluge would leave the new cap connected across the old one, even if nicely done and not with tape like in yours. The old cap could short and cause a big problem. Also, as I said before, when one cap needs replacing you do them all. It's like replacing only one brake shoe in your car - just nuts!

Even if the old caps are not so far gone as to allow obvious amounts of hum when they're starting to go you may begin to get "ghost notes" as you play through the amp.

Anyhow, it's up to you. I'm just giving you the same advice I'd give if you brought the amp into my shop:

Pay me now or pay MORE later!:smile:

DITTO!!!

[traynor_garnet]

One thing I've always wonderd, when people say they are getting a "cap job" which caps are actually replaced? I know there are filter caps, electrolytic caps, and ????.

Is every single cap change out in a cap job?

BTW, my amp was probably made in 1967.

TG

[Milothicus]

As I understand it, the ceramic disk capacitors are generally ok. they don't need to be replaced.

most others do.

the filter caps can be in a large multicapacitor. it's a tube-sized silver can that has at least 2 capacitors built into it. i know i've seen one with 4, not sure how many they can fit in there. this can be replaced with another multicapacitor if you can find one, or multiple discrete capacitors, which are easier to find.

electrolytics generally replacing. they're also larger than ceramics. they will be the coupling capacitors positioned between the plate of one tube and the grid of the next to stop DC from passing to the tube's grid.

there are also older paper-in-oil caps that should be replaced, and probably some other types i can't think of right now.

This is some good reading, and a source for caps, too.

http://www.justradios.com/captips.html

[Wild Bill]

One thing I've always wonderd, when people say they are getting a "cap job" which caps are actually replaced? I know there are filter caps, electrolytic caps, and ????.

Is every single cap change out in a cap job?

BTW, my amp was probably made in 1967.

TG

When I do a cap job I replace only the electrolytics. This covers all the filter caps in the power supply, the bias supply and not to be forgotten, the smaller cathode bypass caps in the preamp stages, like those 25mfd/25v ones across the 1K5 cathode resistors. These last are often forgotten. When they dry up everything looks and tests fine except that you don't have as much gain as you should from the preamp.

All the other caps are made of materials that don't deteriorate over the years. Sometimes they may have been crappy to begin with, like those chocolate brown ones in old Fenders, as A2T advised me a while back. So any that are in the signal path I might suggest replacing with Orange Drops if the player is willing to treat himself. They aren't strictly necessary, 'though.

The suggestion to replace multi-section cans with individual units is a good one. Sometimes you can get a can that's close from mfgrs like JJ but individual caps always works out cheaper anyway. Besides, modern ones tend to be much smaller and are not that difficult to shoehorn in. I generally mount a solder tie strip fore and aft and hang the caps between the terminals.

It's nice to re-cap a classic old amp, knowing it will be making good vibes for another few decades! No reason why an amp shouldn't last forever, if the parts are available.

:food-smiley-004: