do I insult you??

[ajcoholic]

Sometimes I think when I post my stuff about building guitars, and how I think guitar building in general is basically just woodworking (and not that hard at that) and that I encourage others to try their hand at it... that I may be somewhat "insulting" the guys who do this for a living.

My methods and means may be a little unorthodox too, but to me, its the fact that I always end up with a great guitar, with a great feel and that makes ME happy. And I like to encourage other guys to try it for themselves.

But I also feel that a few guys over on HC may be slighted by the fact I suggest that building guitars isnt all that hard. I still think its quite straight forward wood working. Heck, I come up against many many more difficult things to do in my daily work of building custom furniture - more so than I ever have building a guitar.

So by stating my opinion that I consider guitar building something that the average, "handy-person with tools" could also accomplish for themselves - is that akin to insulting the professional guitar builder???

AJC

[Accept2]

Home built guitars have been around since the time your granny was a glint in your great grannies eye. I dont see how you are going to insult a luthier. Building a guitar isnt hard, but building a good guitar actually is. The fact is most luthiers dont even have the knowledge to play guitar, but they do posess the knowledge to make some extraordinary stuff. Anyone can make a guitar, but few can make a good guitar, and only the elite can make a great guitar. Maybe the people who are insulted by the notion of someone building their own guitar arent building good guitars........

[theelectic]

I'll halfway agree. "Handy person with tools", sure. Great job, no. I'm pretty handy with tools myself, and I refretted a cheapo, maple neck guitar. Got the right fretwire but tool-wise all I had was the little nipper pliers to get the old frets out, some files, and a deadblow hammer. Even though I did a very careful job, it's technically playable, but there are numerous problems: (a) guitar doesn't intonate properly, (b) looks horrible, (c) fret ends are very rough. The actual wood part of a neck/body is the easy part. Getting all the little luthier parts right is tough.

[MaxWedge]

Remember Homer Simpson's home made baseball bat, well if I were to make my own guitar I can't imagine it looking much better. Some who do good work fail to recognize their natural talent and dismiss the activity as easy.

[ajcoholic]

Ahh - all valid points. I too should state when I am speaking of guitar building I am not talking the ultra intricate inlays, and other stuff that dress up a aguitar and are probably some of the harder stuff. I am talking for instance, building a telecaster. The body is a slab of wood, minimal router work and sanding. It is not free hand shaping and carving (although that too can easily be learnt with practice). Necks - well, I was a 15 year old kid when I made my first one, from scratch and it was quite playable (I still have it) although the fretwork is funny to see now it was a learning experience.

I guess I just hate to read the people's comments that suggest guitar building is somehow "inherantly difficult" and better left to the "experts". I believe that given the basic skill of general woodworking (being able to cut, shape and sand wood, and glue things together) many people could actually build themselves a pretty solid instrument. And with some practice, you can get to the point where you can build a guitar that exceeds a Gibson, Fender, PRS, etc.

Maybe I am a positive thinker? Maybe I am just underestimating my own abilities? I still remember my father telling me many times "if someone else did it before, there is no reason why you cant do it now".

I admire many of the custom builders out there. I applaud them for doing what they do. But I still like to see people who really would like to try guitar building at least give it a try. Otherwise maybe you dont know how good an instrument you could make...

AJC

[CocoTone]

Insulting??? Naaaw,,,,arrogant is a more appropriate word. A friend of mine thought he could build an acoustic once. Didn't do a half bad job too,,,looks-wise. After about a year or two with strings on it tho, it just about folded in half on itself. A tele would be easy to build, as its just a parts thing. tThe neck would be the hardest part I'd think. How long would it be playable tho???
Try a 335 next.

CT.

[Mahogany Martin]

Some who do good work fail to recognize their natural talent and dismiss the activity as easy.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Well almost. I see talent more as a passion for something. And when you start something, you're not necessarily good at it. But if you like doing it, you eventually develop something and it becomes easier.

I can often "dismiss the activity as easy" and I often wonder too if I'm *insulting* people. But if someone say to me something like oh I wish I could sing or play guitar, drums... renovate, fix cars etc. I feel that if someone says that, that they have a *passion* for it and I can't help but tell them just go ahead and do it and keep at it and you'll do it.

They usually look at me kind of saying yeah yeah it's easy for you to say. Do I *offend* them? I wonder too. ;)

.02c

[ajcoholic]

coco - arrogant to me means someone who considers themselves "great". Thats not me at all - and if you ever read my build threads over on HC you would reaslise that. I am ALL for the "little guy". I will admit, that being a woodworker for a living certainly has allowed me to develop skills that I can use to build guitars (my basic point - that guitar construction for the most part IS just that, ie, woodworking)

My point is I encourage people who want to try and do stuff for themselves to actually go and do it. As opposed to some I have read rather discourage it and give a list of reasons why they shouldnt try it.

You dont buy a guitar and within minutes become a super star player. Likewise, you dont buy a router/sander and some wood and become an expert luthier in a few days. However, given the want to do it, and the love for the building part of it, I think many more guys could do it if they tried.

This is rather an interesting discussion for me. I am so isolated in my small town its not often I get to talk to any other musicians let alone others who build guitars. Or just want to. Or even just build from parts. Its all good!

Now I gotta do the dishes, and then head back to my shop. I;m installing the bigsby on one of my home made guit's and I need to modify some parts. Lots of fun.. if some of you only knew how much fun you'd ALL be doing it! :)

AJC

[GuitarsCanada]

I just built an 8' picnic table utilizing my new Ridgid portable tablesaw... fantastic machine. God bless the Home Depot, love those people.

[MichaelMurray]

I think you have to specify what type of guitar you are making. You mention a Telecaster and I would agree that making a solid body electric guitar is a relatively simple woodworking task. It would be also relatively simple to build a good instrument as long as you choose a good piece of wood and good pickups and electronics. For a novice the most challenging part would be the neck and fretting it for proper intonation but still a relatively easy task in the range of skills that a good luthier needs to have.

Building an acoustic is much more difficult both in terms of woodworking skills required and in the difficulty of producing a good quality instrument. Being able to select a good piece of wood for the top is an art in itself and a far greater factor in the sound of the guitar than with an electric guitar. Then there are issues such as the thickness of the top, tuning the top and using a suitable bracing pattern. Any errors in building technique will be readily discernable to the listener as the instrument is producing 100% of the sound and nothing can be disguised through amplification and effects.

It is also important to state what building your own guitar means to you. Are you referring to starting from scratch, using some pre-fabricated parts like the neck or building from a kit where you are only required to assemble parts that are already in finished state.

[CocoTone]

coco - arrogant to me means someone who considers themselves "great". Thats not me at all - and if you ever read my build threads over on HC you would reaslise that. I am ALL for the "little guy". I will admit, that being a woodworker for a living certainly has allowed me to develop skills that I can use to build guitars (my basic point - that guitar construction for the most part IS just that, ie, woodworking)

My point is I encourage people who want to try and do stuff for themselves to actually go and do it. As opposed to some I have read rather discourage it and give a list of reasons why they shouldnt try it.

You dont buy a guitar and within minutes become a super star player. Likewise, you dont buy a router/sander and some wood and become an expert luthier in a few days. However, given the want to do it, and the love for the building part of it, I think many more guys could do it if they tried.

This is rather an interesting discussion for me. I am so isolated in my small town its not often I get to talk to any other musicians let alone others who build guitars. Or just want to. Or even just build from parts. Its all good!

Now I gotta do the dishes, and then head back to my shop. I;m installing the bigsby on one of my home made guit's and I need to modify some parts. Lots of fun.. if some of you only knew how much fun you'd ALL be doing it! :)

AJC

You asked if you came across as insulting. I'm just answering your question. You come across as arrogant. Still.:wave:



CT.

[ajcoholic]

Well, should I start telling people that guitar construction is inherantly hard, not worth the time and trouble and better left to the professionals? Would that make me less "arrogant" ?

My mission (and I am like this in other aspects of my life, not just music) is to encourage people to try stuff.

OK here is an example of what I am talking about (and there was a thread over on HC last fall about it). I have a teen age freind that plays with me in the local community band. He wanted to try building a guitar after playing several of mine. So, for #1 I suggested he purchase a neck, and he did. I bought the hardware and together we designed a Dean-style flying V. But, then we went to my shop and with me just looking and guiding (not doing the work) he went from rough lumber, straightened the wood, laminated it, cut it out, sanded it, made router templates and routed the cavities and neck pocket, drilled for controls, finish sanded - I did the actual finishing. SO he basically made his own body without any assistance from me other than guiding him. He is 16 and had no previous woodworking experience. The body turned out great. Now he is hooked and his younger brother also wants to try and make a guitar. Thats what I like to see - especially in youth who are used to the "buy it now and instant gratification" mentality.

I fail to see your point of how this is considered "arrogant":confused: - however you are entitled to your opinion fair enough.

It makes me so friggin happy to see anyone just try and do something for themselves, to try and create something that didnt exist before. Its so easy to plumk down your $$ and buy something but its so much more rewarding to actually play an instrument you had something to do with in its creation. I like it, I like to see it and I encourage it and probably always will.

Start with picknick tables... next stop guitars! :)

Oh well. :rockon:

AJC

[Spikezone]

CT, I think you're wrong about AJ. I know where he's coming from. I think he just enjoys doing it so much that he wants others to try it and see if they can't get the same satisfaction out of it. I see his posting of guitar build pics as being a primer for those who might want to try it and use his procedures as pointers along the way, not as a show-off kind of thing. I am a duffer (have hardly any tools to speak of and have been doing some borrowing from friends and neighbours along the way) where it comes to woodworking, but I am in the process of building a solidbody of my own (sort-of) design, and I know that even with my limited skills it will turn out okay, and if not, well, the parts are still good for another effort afterwards. I didn't have the guts to try to make a neck and fretboard of my own (I could never get the fret measurements good enough with my limited skill to intonate properly), so I bought a Might Mite on eBay. My biggest headache was getting the holes for the bridge and neck studs in the right place (which I won't know for sure until final assembly), and my big current problem is that I am at the finishing stage right now and that is going slowly. I say KUDOS to AJ for trying to challenge anybody who might be thinking about trying it for themselves and needing that extra prod.
-Mikey

[Lowtones]

I agree with AJ about encouraging others to give it a go. Take your time and just keep trying until you get it right. As for making guitars try your hand at it. Just get some wood then cut & sand away all the bits that don't look like a guitar.:D

[ajcoholic]

I agree with AJ about encouraging others to give it a go. Take your time and just keep trying until you get it right. As for making guitars try your hand at it. Just get some wood then cut & sand away all the bits that don't look like a guitar.:D


Thats funny - I carve waterfowl decoys also, and thats what I tell people... take your block of wood and carve away everything that doesnt look like a duck;) :D

AJC

[paragonGuitars]

I used to be scared "wittless" of even taking the control panell of my electric off, much less doing a fret dressing on my own guitar, and even though I had access to woodworking equipment all my life, it wasn't till I was 23 or so and had played guitar about 8 years that I decided to try and build an electric guitar--and I was already a cabinetmaker! Suddenly the mystery began unravelling and I realized that it wasn't "magic", and I even considered myself pretty darn good right away;)

That said, I think that the deeper you look into it the finer points of what makes a GREAT instrument, the more you realise that you are on the tip of an iceberg. After about 12 years of building, I feel like I've only really begun to build excellent guitars in the last few years, and the mystery gets deeper as I try to get better and better, and as I become exposed to the best instruments in the world. Once you get into shaping sound from changing minor details in construction, the woods you choose and the shape of your bracing, things start to get more complicated than the day you built your first strat copy and plugged it in. Nothing should stop anyone from giving it a try and I bet most people will be surprised at what they can do!! It's like telling a kid not to play basketball after school because he'll never be tall enough to play in the NBA:D

Rob

[ajcoholic]

Wow Rob, that was well said. I totally agree - and I dont consider myself a "real" builder since I do it just for myself- that the quest to become a GREAT luthier is never ending. However, I guess I should clarify that I am talking just getting started, as you state its first necessary toget over the inital "what if.." phase. Dont worry too much about what can go wrong but concentrate on what you may be capable of doing.

So if you never got the urge to look under the cover, so to speak, you wouldnt be making your guitars today. Thats all I am trying to get others to possibly do, take a look under the hood :)

AJC

[guitarzan]

i don't feel insulted. i understand your point of view.
we all describe things from our own point of view and sometimes we forget that others don't think or feel like we do.
sure building a guitar is easy if you understand and care about the details and why things work or don't. some people don't get it and think there is voodoo and such involved. or don't have the ability to learn something new.
i said SOME...don't flame me guys.
basically i agree that it is easy if you are good with your hands and understand the important things.
i want to build my own guitar but i need more tools and a decent place to do it. at present i don't really fear taking them apart and modding or tweaking things.
but i do proceed with caution on each new discovery and always research before doing something new.
when i was younger truss rods scared the hell out of me, i would never touch the adjustment screw. but now i realise it is so simple and easy. but you have to remember some people need to leave somethings alone. some people have no fear and when that is combined with no knowledge or skill it can be bad.
i am disgusted sometimes to see how some treat musical instruments.
i have worked on guitars that were abused. only to see the same guy want the work repeated a year later. sorry.
yes building a guitar isn't rocket science.
if you think and have the ability to learn what you don't already know it is easy to a degree.
and i don't see why anyone should be offended or insulted by your statement that it is easy. i am not.
later
i need to sleep (12 hour shifts are brutal)

[JamesPeters]

So by stating my opinion that I consider guitar building something that the average, "handy-person with tools" could also accomplish for themselves - is that akin to insulting the professional guitar builder???



Yes. The average handyperson with tools is the reason so many houses are falling apart, full of mold or extremely inefficient at maintaining heat in the winter.

Make no mistake, the average handyperson could not build a good guitar. A very good handyperson with good tools (doesn't have to be the best at it, or have the best tools) can make a decent guitar. Even so, to do certain things right it's out of the reach of anyone who doesn't have access to some specific tools or a decent shop.

[CocoTone]

take some time and watch this video, and then we`ll talk about building guitars.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4764707652331081865&q=clapton


CT.

[ajcoholic]

take some time and watch this video, and then we`ll talk about building guitars.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4764707652331081865&q=clapton


CT.


OK lets talk. :) HAve you ever tried to build a guitar?

AJC

[CocoTone]

Listen up pal. I don't build them. I play them. SOme of us are good with wood, and some of us aren't. I posted the vid so that us ignorant non woodheads can get an idea of what goes into building guitars. Go breathe some sawdust. I can no more build a guitar than you can build a motorcycle.

CT.

[Marnacious]

That was a pretty interesting video. Enjoyed it and recommend people watch it.

[ajcoholic]

Listen up pal. I don't build them. I play them. SOme of us are good with wood, and some of us aren't. I posted the vid so that us ignorant non woodheads can get an idea of what goes into building guitars. Go breathe some sawdust. I can no more buid a guitar than you can build a motorcycle.

CT.


"listen up, Pal" I am listening. I breathe sawdust every day. I think I have a pretty decent understanding of woodworking seeing how I have probably 30,000 hours working in the trade. If I can teach a kid to build a body in a few saturday afternoons, then there has to be a lot more people that have the skills but just need the encouragement. It wasnt that long ago (ok, 20 years) I had the urge to try building a guitar and ran with it. If I had listened to guys like you I would still be wondering what that was like, instead of playing my very own hand made guitar (thanks to Melvyn Hiscock's 1st printing of his guitar making book).

And I could build a motorcycle if I wanted to. I can weld, have mechanical skills and machine shop skills, and most importantly the drive to persue anything I am interested in, which is 90% the battle. If you say I can't do it before you even start then you just shot yourself in the foot before the race began.

I wont change your mind, & it don't bother me... You go your way & I'll go mine....


:rockon:

[GuitarsCanada]

Make no mistake, the average handyperson could not build a good guitar. A very good handyperson with good tools (doesn't have to be the best at it, or have the best tools) can make a decent guitar. Even so, to do certain things right it's out of the reach of anyone who doesn't have access to some specific tools or a decent shop.

I think the biggest factor is having the equipment to do it. Someone that does not have even the basic woodworking tools would have to spend a fortune to get going. Then you have the jigs, routers etc etc. I have a pretty well equiped shop here at the house and we have been working with wood for years as well. But I dont have some of the specialized tools requires. I don't think I am far off though. Maybe someday I will give it a try. Would be real cool to have a guitar made by myself.

[CocoTone]

"listen up, Pal" I am listening. I breathe sawdust every day. I think I have a pretty decent understanding of woodworking seeing how I have probably 30,000 hours working in the trade. If I can teach a kid to build a body in a few saturday afternoons, then there has to be a lot more people that have the skills but just need the encouragement. It wasnt that long ago (ok, 20 years) I had the urge to try building a guitar and ran with it. If I had listened to guys like you I would still be wondering what that was like, instead of playing my very own hand made guitar (thanks to Melvyn Hiscock's 1st printing of his guitar making book).

And I could build a motorcycle if I wanted to. I can weld, have mechanical skills and machine shop skills, and most importantly the drive to persue anything I am interested in, which is 90% the battle. If you say I can't do it before you even start then you just shot yourself in the foot before the race began.

I wont change your mind, & it don't bother me... You go your way & I'll go mine....


:rockon:

Like I said,,,,arrogant. I think everyone knows someone who has started a project, with every intention to do a good job, but then runs into unforseen roadblocks, and the project just seems to languish, and then gets relegated to the unfinished pile. And I'm sure we all know cocque-sure know-it-alls like you my friend.

I'm already on my own way.;)

CT.

[flyontoast]

Alright, I got to say it.
I read the first few posts and this last page. You have to be pretty damn full of yourself to believe that someone that something FOR A LIVING will be insulted with what you can produce in your garage. That's like me building a stinkin' little rocket and launching it in my backyard and than asking NASA is they are insulted that I can do what they do.
I don't build guitars, but there is no way you can build anything as good as a real master guitar builder. A real Luthier could probably pick-up one of your guitars and find 10 things that he could have done better in less than 1 minute.
The only reason for a Luthier to be insulted is that you think of them as being so petty that they'd be insulted by your little hobby.

[Spikezone]

But I dont have some of the specialized tools requires. I don't think I am far off though.
I am in the process of finishing off a solid-body guitar right now. I bought the neck off eBay because I seriously doubt I would have the skills to cut in frets that would be anywhere near in tune. The tools I have used for the rest are a drill press I bought on sale at Canadian Tire for about 40 bux, a jig saw (which I hardly used in the process-only for cutting out router jigs for the cavities, reshaping the headstock a bit and cutting out the plastic cavity covers), a router (I borrowed my neighbour's plastic base with the small insert brass guide), a band saw (which I used in a friend's shop), and my neighbour's router table (for shaping the edges of the body), and odds 'n' ends of hand tools I have.
I am only posting this because if you use a bit of inginuity, you can come up with techniques to do a lot of unique things without specialized tools as long as you plan it out before you start to cut. Those 'unforeseen roadblocks' can be avoided if you plan it out in your head first and try to figure out what might go wrong. Some people find it hard to do-my wife and I are complete opposites-she would use the tools first and then try to figure out what she did wrong second and how to fix it third. LOL! Me, I find that laying awake nights thinking about what COULD go wrong works best! HAHHAH!
This is my second home-built guitar. I made the first one years ago with way less tools than this-I think for power tools I only had a hand drill and a jigsaw and the rest I did with chisels, etc. That guitar turned out to be playable and a rockin' little guitar, but if you look closely at it with the pickguard off, you can tell what I used to make the pickup and control cavities. LOL!
It CAN be done! Coco, you obviously don't have any interest in building one of your own, and that's fine. I just don't get why you seem to be answering back AJ's posts so venomously?!? He's just trying to get the on-the-fencers to give it a try...
-Mikey

[CocoTone]

No venom. Just answering his origional question. His post comes across to me as arrogant is all. I do have interest in building a parts guitar. I want a good Tele, and they`d be as easy as any, and with quality parts, a good guitar can be had.

CT.

[BrownID]

I think the biggest factor is having the equipment to do it. Someone that does not have even the basic woodworking tools would have to spend a fortune to get going. Then you have the jigs, routers etc etc. I have a pretty well equiped shop here at the house and we have been working with wood for years as well. But I dont have some of the specialized tools requires. I don't think I am far off though. Maybe someday I will give it a try. Would be real cool to have a guitar made by myself.

I have to disagree with you on this. I have met some pretty talent builders who pride themselves on building guitars with only the most basic woodworking tools. None of these builders used power tools or jigs of any sort. In fact, a big part of being a good builder is learning how to make tools to suit your building techniques and building tasks.

My first foray into building was using some of the most decrepit machinery a tools. Most of this stuff should have been tossed out long ago and in many cases was unsafe to operate. It did force me to learn to work with what I had and how to fix & maintain a lot of machinery. Sure, it would have been nice to have every Stew-Mac tool & a room full of jigs at my disposal, but I didn’t have that luxury at the time.

[Xanadu]

ajc, come back :'(

[Spikezone]

I second that!
-Mikey

[jxoco]

I just built an 8' picnic table utilizing my new Ridgid portable tablesaw... fantastic machine.


8 feet! Whoa! what kind of whammy bar is going to fit that sucker?